Inside Madonna's Adoption Controversy

CNN LARRY KING LIVE,

LARRY KING, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, inside Madonna's baby controversy, outcry from human rights groups about celebrity privilege and the legality of adopting a boy from Africa. She says she's just trying to save a child's life and she did it legally. Now, is she planning to adopt a girl too? We've got the latest.

And then, a Cracker Barrel customer says the restaurant discriminated against her. It turns out she's comedian Chris Rock's mom. And now, Reverend Al Sharpton is also involved. They'll tell us why they're so angry.

Meanwhile, disgraced ex-Congressman Mark Foley's attorney canceled his scheduled appearance not long before tonight's show, why?

Plus, is there a pink (INAUDIBLE) of high-ranking gay Republicans in the works?

It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

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KING: Good evening.

One program note, tomorrow night's special guest for the full hour, arguably the hottest politician in America, the junior senator from the State of Illinois Senator Barack Obama; Barack Obama tomorrow night.

We start tonight with the story of media queen Madonna's efforts to adopt a 13-month-old Malawian boy. His name is David Banda and his adoption has attracted international attention and front page controversy.

A coalition of human rights organizations is challenging the handling of the adoption saying Madonna has been allowed to bend or break the rules because of her celebrity. By they way, the little boy's father still alive, he placed David in an orphanage after the child's mother died due to childbirth complications.

Our guest tonight in Indianapolis, Cheryl Carter-Shotts, founder and managing director of Americans for African Adoptions, she's the adoptive mother of two African children. One of her adoptive sons works with AFAA. In Eugene, Oregon is Vickie Peterson, executive director of external affairs, Wide Horizons for Children. That organization is one of the largest non-profit adoption and child welfare agencies in the United States. Angelina Jolie adopted her daughter Zahara through Wide Horizons in Ethiopia.

In New York is Katrina Szish, contributing editor of "US Weekly." The current edition of that magazine has an article called "Mamma Drama, Madonna Brings Home Baby."

And, in London, is Paula Hancocks, CNN Correspondent, who has been covering this Madonna adoption story for us from the get-go. Paula, what is the latest?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well at this point, Larry, we know that Baby David is trying to acclimatize in the arms of Madonna here in London in her central London luxurious house, obviously a very big change for him coming from an orphanage in poverty-stricken Malawi and then coming to the wealth and the help and the luxury of one of the world's biggest superstars.

Now we have heard from Madonna herself as well. She wrote an open letter hitting back at the critics, saying she has gone through the proper channels. She has abided by the laws, both here and in Malawi, and she says that this had been going on for months before her and her film director husband Guy Ritchie went to Malawi last week.

But, inevitably there is a lot of controversy that always surrounds Madonna. There are photographers outside her house day and night at the moment. And you know what the British press is like. They are ferocious. When they get their teeth into a story they're not going to let go easily -- Larry.

KING: Cheryl Shots of Americans for African Adoptions what's your feelings on this?

CHERYL CARTER-SHOTTS, FOUNDER, AMERICANS FOR AFRICAN ADOPTIONS: It depends on what rules were followed and not followed. I pulled the adoption laws from the Library of Congress for Malawi three or four years ago and, at that time, you had to be a resident of Malawi for 18 months before you could do an adoption and remove the child out of Malawi.

I spoke with the Malawian Embassy yesterday and they confirmed for me that everything she did was very legal. When I asked if we could do adoptions in Malawi the subject really wasn't fully answered. And, when I asked about this 18-month rule they said that she had followed all rules and regulations.

KING: Vickie, if the father is happy with it and he's in a poverty situation and his wife is dead, what's the argument?

VICKY PETERSON, WIDE HORIZONS FOR CHILDREN: There really is no argument, Larry. The reality is that most children who are given up for adoption, whether it's in the United States or other countries, do have at least one living parent. In many African countries many of the children have lost both of their parents but in this particular case he has a father, a biological father and that's not unusual and it's wonderful that this child is going to get a chance at a real future that he might not have in Malawi where he's living in a very impoverished situation.

So, I really can't find any problem with Madonna adopting a child. And, in fact, it's terrific that the spotlight is on international adoptions because there are so many children in the world that need a family. And, if this is a way of drawing attention to that need it's terrific.

KING: Katrina of "US Weekly," do you understand the uproar?

KATRINA SZISH, US WEEKLY: I understand the uproar and I think it's only because it's surrounding Madonna. And, as it was mentioned earlier, everything that is related to Madonna always has something controversial connected to it.

However, I do think that the uproar is absolutely ridiculous. This is an act of benevolence. This is an act of kindness. This is an act that should inspire all of us to do good. It shouldn't inspire anybody to attack Madonna.

Even David's father himself told "US Weekly" that he is ecstatic with the adoption. David's father told the AP today that he wishes all of these human rights groups would back off. Where were they when David was in this orphanage? And now they come out when something wonderful is happening. So, I really don't think there is a controversy here.

KING: What's the feeling, Paula, in London?

HANCOCKS: Well, the feeling is split at the moment. Right at the beginning when this story first emerged there were many people saying there shouldn't be one rule for celebrity and another rule for the rest of humankind.

But then, of course, after Madonna came out with her open letter and explained that she had followed the letter of the law, there have been more and more people saying "Maybe we should just leave Madonna alone. Maybe she is trying to do a good thing."

She already has two children, so she's proved that she is a good mother. And, certainly she should be able to do something like this. She is in a position to be able to do that.

But the one thing that the human rights organizations are more concerned with, which many people in the British press who have been quoted of agreeing with as well, is that this shouldn't set a precedent to be able to fast track one particular person in adopting a child. Then that could open the door for further fast tracks, some of them maybe not so benevolent.

KING: Cheryl, what if we were to say it's not our business? It's the father's business and Madonna's business not ours. CARTER-SHOTTS: That's not quite true, Larry. There are rules and regulations that have to be followed by the British government if that child is brought into the United States by the United States government, by U.S. immigration, by U.S. embassies, by the country of Malawi.

One of the things that I would love to see is if Madonna is going to adopt a second child, a female child, I'd love for her to adopt a five or older child because when the news media reports all of these millions of orphans in Africa, the majority of those children that I've seen over the 20 years I've worked in Africa is that they're five years of age and older and frequently they are siblings.

So, I hope she does adopt a little girl and I hope it's a five or older. And, all we can do is assume that she's followed all the rules and regulations. But, as Vickie said, having one living parent who is living below the poverty standards for their country is legal.

KING: We'll take a break and be back with more. We'll also include your phone calls on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

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KING: During this segment of the program as well, we'll be showing you pictures, exclusive photos of Madonna and Baby David. They are from the October 20th edition of "People" magazine, there you see its cover, and "US" magazine and their current edition has an article called "Mamma Drama, Madonna Brings Home Baby."

Vickie, any problems with the fact that she is an American citizen and her husband is a citizen of the U.K.? Are there different adoptive regulations?

PETERSON: Well, certainly the U.K. has different regulations from the United States. And, as Cheryl said, depending on where she's bringing that child, she'll need to meet the regulations of that country and I don't know the specifics of the Madonna situation since our agency has not been involved in that adoption.

But, I have no doubt that she will meet the requirements of whichever country she brings her child to and she may end up needing to meet requirements of both countries if she's traveling to both countries.

KING: Katrina, would you open it wide? Would you say that any citizen who has the means should be able to adopt impoverished children from countries that have poverty problems?

SZISH: Sure, any citizen should be allowed to adopt a child from countries with poverty problems. However, in this situation everybody is saying that because Madonna is a celebrity she fast-tracked and it is customary for a celebrity to be able to sidestep a few situations. And, even though it might not seem fair that is something that does happen. In some ways it did happen with this situation in that Madonna was allowed to take custody of David without being a resident of Malawi. But, at this point, we have to remember Madonna is not suddenly David's mother. Right now she's still a foster parent. The adoption will not go through for another 18 months.

But, any other citizen, just like Madonna, should be able to adopt and over 20,000 Americans a year do adopt children from outside of the United States, so it does happen.

KING: Paula, will agencies come to the United States to look at how this kid is being treated and being brought up?

HANCOCKS: Well that is what we're expecting, Larry, yes. We're expecting that there will be some agencies actually coming to the U.K. Now we don't know the exact situation whether it will be a social worker walking up to the multimillion dollar apartment that Madonna has in central London, knocking on the door.

But there are going to be rigorous checks we are hearing both from the Malawian side and also from the British side because as it has been said before there does have to be checks on both sides and they are quite rigorous checks.

And she is just having custodial rights at this point. It doesn't necessarily give it a guarantee that at the end of the 18 months she will be David Banda's adoptive mother but certainly the checks are going to be in place on both sides and both countries.

KING: Cheryl, why would anyone question the motive other than she wants to raise a child from an impoverished situation? What could possibly be bad about that?

CARTER-SHOTTS: I think possibly it was questioned because it seemed to be fast-tracked but I don't know...

KING: So what? All right, let's say it was, so what?

CARTER-SHOTTS: Well, I can tell you our phone is ringing off the wall, Larry, all week about our families saying "Why can't you speed up our process? Why can't you (INAUDIBLE)?"

KING: But I mean you're not -- that's true but you're not questioning her motives are you?

CARTER-SHOTTS: No, I'm not questioning her motives at all. I want to clarify something that was said by one of your guests a few minutes ago, which is when you say that anyone can adopt it's not really anyone.

It's someone that passes all of the clearances with a home study, with an FBI clearance for the United States, with local police clearances. There are complete dossiers reviewed in the foreign country to see if the feeling is that this is a family that can do a good job parenting a child.

KING: Vicky...

CARTER-SHOTTS: It's more rigorous to do an international adoption than it is to have your own child. I have two adopted African kids.

KING: Vicky, wouldn't you say that any couple or person wanting to adopt, if they had the ability to fast-track, would fast-track?

PETERSON: Yes, actually I think that's an accurate statement, Larry. All of us would like when we want, when we're really highly motivated to do something, usually want it to happen quickly and adoptive parents certainly fall into that category.

And so, sure, every parent would like to -- prospective parent would like to have a child come home into their family as quickly as possible but just like everyone else, celebrities do have to fulfill the requirements.

And, I don't know the specifics of Madonna's situation but I can believe that she spent many months involved in this process, as the average family does. In the United States it takes anywhere generally from eight to 15 or 16 months to do an adoption and you know and that's pretty typical.

KING: So do you think...

PETERSON: There is a lot of paperwork involved.

KING: Do you think, Katrina, that people -- Katrina, do you think people are therefore angry at the clout?

SZISH: Absolutely. I think the biggest issue here is the fact that, hey, if Madonna can do it, why can't I do it? As it was mentioned, every family now wants to say, "Well, why can't I push the fast button and make that happen?"

KING: OK and isn't that fair?

SZISH: You know...

KING: To say that?

SZISH: Of course it's fair. Again, you know, everyone does want to do something quickly, make it happen fast, that instant gratification when they want something. And, is it kind of unfair that Madonna got to do this a little bit faster than everybody else, absolutely. Are her motives wrong, are her intentions wrong, absolutely not.

What she is doing is wonderful. So, you can criticize her or you can criticize the system for allowing her to do this faster but you certainly cannot criticize the act itself.

KING: We'll take a break and be back with more on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Stay right there.

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KING: We have a call for our panel. It's from Chicago, hello, Chicago, hello.

CALLER FROM CHICAGO: Yes hello, Larry.

KING: Hi, go ahead.

CALLER FROM CHICAGO: Yes. I want to know why are these celebrities, why don't they concentrate on adopting children in the United States? Why is it always overseas or in some exotic country when there's children here in the United States in need?

KING: Well, Vicky, you handled Angelina Jolie's adoption in Ethiopia, how do you respond to that?

PETERSON: Right. Well, actually there are a relatively small number of celebrities who adopt from other countries. It's just that there's a tremendous amount of attention that's focused on them when they do these adoptions. But most celebrities, just like the average American, does adopt, do adopt children from the United States and not from abroad.

It's wonderful for celebrities to put the spotlight of attention on the fact that there are millions of children who need families abroad. And, in other countries, there are children dying.

They don't have an education. They don't have good medical care and they don't have the attention of parents who have -- who are no longer with them. So, it's a wonderful thing when attention is brought on the fact that children need families all over the world.

KING: Paula, what's the British press reaction to all this? They go wild don't they?

HANCOCKS: They do, yes. They certainly can be ferocious on stories like this. But they do seem to be softening a little towards Madonna since we have heard that she has written that open letter saying she believes that she's followed the law itself.

And, it is interesting that there are so many sidebars in the British press now actually focusing on the problems in Malawi, focusing on the fact that there's almost one million AIDS orphans in Malawi itself. So, it has really brought that to the forefront, something that most people know.

There are a lot of AIDS orphans in Sub-Sahara and Africa itself but as many of your guests have been saying this has brought it to the forefront once again. And the British press is focusing on that.

KING: Cheryl, isn't it therefore pretty good that we now can look at conditions in a country like Malawi and see what children are being -- how they're being raised and what it's like?

CARATER-SHOTTS: I'm all for all the focus that can be brought as far as the needs in Africa. The needs are phenomenal. They're both for adoption, for humanitarian needs. We are working on an HIV/AIDS education program. Our little adoption agency sponsors orphanages for some children that are there.

There aren't enough families to adopt the children but the majority of children are not babies and toddlers. And, I'm sure Vicky agrees with me. The majority of children who have been abandoned or orphaned and have lost their relatives to HIV/AIDS are predominantly about five years of age and up. I adopted two older kids. My kids are older.

KING: Vicky, you would agree?

PETERSON: I would agree. I would say perhaps I would only go a little bit younger. I think there are children as young as three and older. There are babies but the -- I agree with Cheryl, the majority of children are three years old and older and many sibling groups need families. We need to find families who can take more than one child because we try very hard as agencies not to separate biological siblings. We also need homes -- we also need homes...

KING: Katrina, Madonna doesn't need the publicity. I'm sorry, go ahead Vicky.

PETERSON: No, I was just going to say the other group of children that we really need to find families for are children that have special needs because there are so many children who are born with even sometimes very minor problems that can't be treated in the country of their birth and brought to this country they will have a bright future and good medical care and good treatment.

CARTER-SHOTTS: Both of -- yes, both of my two (INAUDIBLE).

KING: Katrina -- Katrina, Madonna hardly needs the publicity does she?

SZISH: I think that's an excellent point, Larry. I'm glad you said that. So many people are saying, "She's just doing this as a publicity stunt. She just wants to do what Angelina Jolie did. She's just trying to get news."

Madonna is the last person probably on the planet who needs publicity. Madonna is Madonna. She is doing this simply, as we mentioned earlier, out of the goodness of her heart because she really did want a third child.

She and her husband Guy Ritchie have stated that they wanted a third child. About a year ago, Madonna learned that she couldn't have anymore children. After lots of thought, after actually consulting with Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie about their adoptions, Madonna and Guy started to initiate the process to adopt a child.

And, speaking of orphaned children who are toddlers, three and above, today we learned that Madonna is thinking of adopting a second baby and she's thinking of a 3-year-old girl who she did meet when in Malawi, so she definitely is doing the right thing here.

KING: Cheryl, is it difficult dealing with an interracial adoption?

CARTER-SHOTTS: Not at all. My children are from Ethiopia and Mali, West Africa. My son is an Arab. And, it's been a joy. It's been easy and they were both special needs kids. My daughter is now in the U.S. Air Force. She's an air traffic controller because she felt she owed America.

KING: Wow.

CARTER-SHOTTS: My son just flew in this morning with bringing three children in from Ethiopia for two new families, so he works with me.

KING: Great. Thank you all, Cheryl Carter-Shotts, Vicky Peterson, Katrina Szish, and Paula Hancocks of CNN on staying on top of this intriguing story out of Malawi, Great Britain, and the United States.