Hello folks, a bit about me and adoption

Ah well I've been on alt.adoption for nearly 10 years in various guises, been looking in there for 15, so I probably qualify on 'sick sense of humor' criteria to be here.

I've a little experience of children's homes way way back the age of 2 and that was a long long time ago. Getting access to records from organizations that were active in for want of better word, childcare, and adoption is what I have a bit of experience of as some of you've probably seen.

The main problem with adoption in my time was once parents got that piece of paper http://ao.postadoption.info/  no one in any adoption agency or any childcare agency ever gave a fuck anymore, whatever problems an adoptee might have post-adoption could go unnoticed by anyone who would know what to do about it. These days in the UK its probably more a matter of far too much interference before adoption and sometimes too much of the wrong kind of interference after

If you want the full story on forced adoption in the UK go to FASSIT. Most of the relatively few (compared to the US) adoptions in the UK are necessary adoptions but there are an increasing number of cases over the last few years where there is very serious cause for concern over the motives of Social Services departments in making an adoption plan for those children.

Financial incentives for local authorities meeting adoption targets intended to get kids trapped in care out of care are being misused and there has been an increase in baby adoptions where the motive for an adoption plan is very questionable in my opinion. See http://www.fassit.co.uk/ also http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/facethefacts/transcript_20070824.shtml I have a recording of that show if its any use to anyone, also have the recording mentioned here which they were forced to take off YouTube

Well not altogether sure what I can do to help anyone on PPL but will lend support in any way I can, well mostly in the UK I suppose

(The British Bastard)



Just a small point about the terminology here in England & Wales

Just a small point about the terminology here in England & Wales (not sure about other parts of the UK where they have their own adoption laws). Might seem a bit finical, but its important when people are searching here in England & Wales.  The document on http://ao.postadoption.info is my 'Adoption Order' (the court decree) for my adoption.  Adoptive parents get a copy of that, it's likely to be the only copy in existence outside of the Court and the government department that registers adoptions. I also have an 'Adoption Certificate' which only mentions my adoptive parents I have to use that as a replacement birth certificate for all official purposes, I can buy a copy of that and anyone else can buy a copy my adoption certificate. As I have that copy of the Adoption Order, with my original name and name of my mother on it I had no problems getting my original birth certificate. The later a fact that seem to severely annoy the social worker at Barnardos, I guess my adoptive parents had been told never to let me have sight of it. But I remember being called Gareth as small child before adoption.

Also, I or anyone else who knows what my original name was can buy a copy of my original birth certificate, it was only that fact that allowed me to find out that I had so many siblings and that 5 of them had been adopted, when an adoption takes place in England & Wales the original birth certificate is marked with the word "Adopted" in margin. I would put copies of all the documents on the website were it not for the Crown Copyright Regulations for vital certificates

(The British bastard)

The small details...

It's funny how we notice the small details.  I noticed you didn't drop the dot/egg/bomb after your name, as your signature signage this past post... I also noticed a long time ago, when I was a child a piece of paper my adoptive mother had in her desk, near my baby-book.  It was a paper from an agency, and I thought it was about me, (because I always knew I was adopted... they were always "honest" with me about "the details".)

I had noticed a large black marking on the page.

I asked my mom, "What was that?  What did they put here?"  [See: Baby Pages]

She said it was nothing.  

Anyone knows, (back then, at least), a typewriter leaves an imprint on a page.  All one has to do is turn the page to the light, and read the imprint.  No black marker could hide what was under that cover-up.


I had forgotten about that for YEARS...  until recently.

The truth always has a way of seeping through.


Asterisk the adoptee...

Ah... my asterisk after the sig you mean. I must have missed it off when I cut and pasted. I always write posts in BBEdit and paste them in to the message window

The asterisk is there to stop my sig crashing in to the bottom of the page or message window. Some kinds of forum software try to take out all the white space. I was raised on a farm and like plenty of space

I'm very observant of things like the way people use punctuation and capitalizing, you know, things like whether they put a period (full-stop) after their signature or not. Very few ever do, same thing with the titles of posts on a forum, you rarely see anyone put a full-stop (period) at the end of a title. If ever you see a forum where nearly every member over uses the full-stop, then that forum probably only has the one real member (who has a full-stop fetish) plus dozens of sockpuppets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_sock_puppet

Having those kinds of observational skills is what made it easier for me to find all my mum's other kids who were adopted separately.  Hope it's going to work for me again now I'm searching for agnate siblings

(British Bastard)


Request for Robin

Robin, could you explain a bit about the different organizations in the UK that are involved in the open record debate. I've seen names as Norcap, the forgotten mothers group on MSN. Could you sketch a bit of a picture of the situation in the UK.

Organisations in the UK

Hi Niels

In answer to your question;  Robin, could you explain a bit about the different organizations in the UK that are involved in the open record debate?

Quite simply, there aren't any.

We're desperately in need of a Bastard Nation type of organisation here. Although adopted people are entitled to a copy of their original birth certificate and have been since 1976, there's a lot more to open records than just birth certificates. Liberty (which used to be the National Council for Civil Liberties) financially supported the 'Gunn-Rosso v The Nugent Care Society and the Secretary of State for Health and Social Services'  access to records case in the Royal Courts of Justice in 2001 (?) which moved things along a lot (I have a paper copy of the Judgement somewhere if anyone needs it)

AAA-NORCAP is an intermediary agency for those involved in search and reunion and although it lobbied on behalf of adoptees and natural relatives in the debate on the Adoption and Children Bill in 2002, support of those in search and reunion is its main role. Any organisation that relies in part on government grants for funding is hampered by that reliance when it comes to political activity. (That's not to decry the huge leaps forward that AAA-NORCAP and similar support organisations have achieved)

As far as I am aware Forgotten Mothers is just an MSM group for natural mothers which makes a lot of wild claims for itself and its associated organisation Trackers International. Neither as far as I can see, have ever done anything to advance adoptee rights, though I'm willing to be corrected on that point if I am wrong. This is after all an open forum where those organisation have a right of reply

My personal efforts to get something done are mostly recorded in the links that can be found at http://harritt.eu

Bring on 'Bastard Britain' I say



Getting global

Thank you Robin, what would you think is keeping adoptees in the UK from organizing themselves and how could that be achieved, in your opinion?

On the other hand, adoption having become more and more an international activity over the years, wouldn't you agree we need a global adoptee movement? Some issues, like open records are more related to Ango-saxon countries, as far as I can tell, but more personal issues are probably shared by adoptees around the world.  



So would you and/or Tina be interested in having a group on this website, dedicated to UK issues. We've been pondering that idea before and I think it would be cool and beneficial to all of us if each country would have its own chapter, with information and discussion pertaining specifically to that country, while maintaining global groups where issues can be discussed that are of interest to all of us. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

What's stopping us?

Niels asks; "what would you think is keeping adoptees in the UK from organizing themselves and how could that be achieved, in your opinion?"

I wish I could answer that, it seems to get worse. We've had all sorts of internet groups on Usenet, MSN and Yahoo, privately hosted groups like 'Touched by Adoption' which has just restarted (under new management I think).

A few years ago we were at least seeing a lot people posting internet forums. But when it came to trying to get people to write to MPs and to Parliamentary Committees on the Adoption and Children Bill far too few could manage to do that. So we had very little effect and we only get the one chance like that every 20 years or so. Now we don't even seem to get people wanting to discuss get access to records and help with finding relatives, on the internet forums

It would be great if we could get more discussion of the UK situation for grown up adopted people going here but I have become very disillusioned with it all. All we have is things like the so called 'Forgotten Mothers' a few people pretending to be lots of people (a real sockpuppet theatre). 'Forgotten Mothers' just copies loads of other people's stuff and lots of racist and homophobic newspaper articles from newspaper websites. That just brings the whole movement to reform or abolish adoption and open up the family justice system, in to serious disrepute.

So we have nothing on the internet at the moment and very little out there in the real world. Just a few Adoption Support Agencies that undertake intermediary work for those in search and reunion, that also represent our interests as best they can without risking losing any funding they might get from government and charitable foundations. We really do need something independent of all that. But I've yet to meet enough other interested people to do that, I hope forums like this one can eventually change that, but I don't know how it can overcome what I can only see as apathy




Robin I share your frustration

Rah! Robin I know exactly what you mean when it comes to the apparent lack of interest in the UK but first I have to ask you this: Your comment about forgotten mothers, I pop into FM now and again and have done for the past couple of years, every now and again, some thing, though haven't been sure what, has made me feel uncomfortable and so I stay away for a while. On Saturday I popped in and their was quite a decent article on the board. I put a link to the article on my blog but got a reply from a fellow adoptee Possum (lovely Aussie) saying she couldn't see the article because it said she wasn't a member. I went over to Possums blog hoping she was on line and low and behold the article from FM was actually Possums! I went back to FM and was gobsmacked to find nearly everyone of Possums blog entries there posted by various different people but not one referring to possum. I was confused, yet now feel as thick as a brick!, I knew something didn't seem right, it is only after reading your post saying how FM copy other peoples stuff and being a few people acting as many that the penny has dropped. I know there is a need to use different names from time to time, adoption doesn't allow us the luxury of being true to ourselves, there is always something or someone we feel we have to protect. When I found my family and all the lies started to unravel, as you know, I was a mess. I had quite a bit of support at the time from people at FM, advising me  and such. I have just been reading over them and I am now convinced that a good few of them are in fact one person acting as many. I feel cheated and used in a strange way! would I be right in thinking that the different names with FM underneath is in fact one person., and would I be right in thinking certain people from certain countries are in fact a couple of people from one country.


Forgotten mothers, best forgotten IMO

Hi Tina

FM  have been known to copy stuff from my groups that include graphics hosted on my own server here, therefore I have been able to see IP addresses of people viewing those graphics, there are now very few real people there

FM now consists largely of members of one family in the Manchester area with some very dubious views on on race, sexual orientation and other non adoption related issues that they like to put forward on FM. Originally FM consisted of quite a few others affected by adoption but few of them are now active on that forum

The worrying thing for me is that the same people run Trackers International http://www.uktrackers.co.uk which makes many unrealistic claims for itself. The claim the it has traced and reunited 12000 people is laughable to anyone who like me genuinely works in that field in the UK, particularly its claim to have traced 2000 in last few months before the change in legislation. The research that it claim to have done in to past practice is also very dubious to anyone who understands how social science research is carried out or indeed anyone who understands how historical research is undertaken. Interestingly at the time that TI claimed to have been tracing the bulk of those 12000 it was asking for a membership fee of £25 and further "expenses" and "donations" to  a "Charity Account"  (though never having been registered as a charity). They appears never to have filed accounts for Trackers International's so called "non profit" activity see http://web.archive.org/web/20050203202301/http://www.uktrackers.co.uk/ ... (or if that doesn't work http://ti2.krykee.com ) you can also see Trackers Internationals other claims over recent years on the Wayback Machine archives of its website at  http://ti.krykee.com

As I've said PPL is an open forum where they have a right of reply to those concerns, it would be interesting to hear from them here



Re best forgotten

God, Robin how was I so gullible. I am usually so on the ball. That makes it all the worse. I was taken in by them because I was mentally shattered at the time of joining them. I had noticed that the people from Netty's group and the likes had disappeared from the boards. I only went back to the boards there about 3 weeks ago after probably over a years absence. Trackers I was aware of. I had been trying to get advice after just discovering that my adoption had been granted based on lies and wanted to know how to go about finding out what checks had been made to verify what my adop family and mums uncle had told SS and the courts. A somewhat dodgy legal eagle contacted me on behalf of trackers, spouted a load of wud ov shud ov cud ov's at me and that was it. No legal advice, nothing. Never heard of them again. I emailed Patricia at trackers and was more or less told I would be added to her list of stories and she tried to put me back to the legal eagle. I think the fact that I am a skint single mum stopped any interest they may have had, I had no money to give and that was the end of that.
We have enough trust issues as it is without  groups setting them selves up as places of support only to pray on peoples vulnerabilities for their own agenda's. I don't know who to trust anymore. I'm scared to ask! I took a good six months out of the whole adoption shit to save my sanity I ve only been back into it a few weeks and I'm beginning to wish I stayed away.
love Tina


Oh dear I think we've upset someone

Hi Tina

I think we must've upset someone. You've only to go look at  http://groups.msn.com/ForgottenMothers-/general.msnw and see what's going on there at the moment to see what a crock of shite 'Forgotten Mothers' really is.

Take a look at what's going on there and think about what kind of service you might get from Trackers International http://www.uktrackers.co.uk ; would you want that shower of faecal matter raining down on your search and reunion? I certainly wouldn't and I don't want to see them ruin anyone else's chances,  that's why I like to make sure everyone can see them in their true colours and that's what you'll see there at the moment

Robin Harritt




I'll bite... because I've never been to their site, until just now (and given my own work through PPL, I have no intention of getting involved in any websites other than my own; can you blame this Registered bitch?).

What exactly is so misleading about the two websites you mention, Robin?  They appear to be very caring and concerned about the plights of us lost and finding.  Care to fill us in a little more?

[I love to learn the scoop on this sorta stuff, proving:  "Enough IS Enough" when it comes to lies and cover-ups.]

College-days and Frat-pack thinking

When I was in college, those of us who didn't (or couldn't) join the Greek Social System called ourselves G.D.I's  -- God-Damn Independents.  Autonomy became important, even if it was shared within a group.  You'd think that was a shame, given the emphasis Greek Life has on college campuses, but it actually worked very much in my favor.  As a GDI, I was free to go to all the parties, and I always went with friends, because friends don't let friends drink alone.

Seems the more things change, the more they stay the same.  "If you can't beat 'em, join em", and for some, that means make a killing at the expense of other people's emotions.

Is the owner of either website charging fees from adoptees for services?  If so, I think that's shameful and something should be done to warn fellow adoptees not to get swindled by such creeps.  Money is the very reason I refuse to get involved in "search and reunion".  I can't afford the bullshit.


I don't want to get in to any lengthy discussion or argument on that subject here so I hope this will be the final comment I need to make here

Perhaps they (TI & FM) will exercise their right of reply, tell us how they managed to find and reunite thousands of people in just a few months free of charge and with no funding. Tell us how many cases their "legal consultant" has successfully taken to court, tell us how they can offer a mediation service without being registered as an adoption support agency and therefore without the cooperation of any agency holding adoption records

An organisation called Fassit works very hard on behalf of mothers and families that have unfairly had their children removed and put in care with  adoption adoption as the planed outcome http://www.fassit.co.uk/ Forgotten Mothers reproduce a lot of articles about Fassit and other genuine organisations and bask in the glory as it were. I would like to know what Trackers International its self and Forgotten Mothers have done towards helping anyone in that situation.

I'd like them to tell us how reproducing lots of articles on their Forgotten Mothers site that are anti-Islamic and racist or anti-gay and homophobic helps to change attitudes towards adoption. To me, that just discredits the whole adoption reform movement in the UK

What we desperately need in the UK is people and organisations that will be taken seriously by those in authority and generally that means people who will stand up and be recognised. It is not easy to convince anyone that you are a serious force to reckoned with when all of your personnel seem to be sharing a computer at the same IP location. It isn't very convincing when all share the same spelling and grammar errors and odd style of punctuation. When those things happen people quickly realise that they are dealing with one or just a few individuals, civil servants and government ministers in the UK are not stupid. We need people who are straight, honest and intelligent to put our case to them

There remain many unanswered question about Trackers International's financial arrangements and accountability at a time when it was trying to appear to have charity status and inviting donations

I believe that if Trackers International and Forgotten Mothers were able to provide some credible answers, to all of those questions and concerns, then that would be much more convincing than launching hate sites against anyone who questions their authenticity and motives. How caring does that make them look? How professional are they going to appear to the government ministers that we all need lobby

Perhaps someone from TI and/or FM will be along to give their side of that story but I doubt it.




I say, leave the explaining to God, Himself.  I like to think of PPL as a growing network of Watchdogs warning others of such practices, so pups like us don't get hurt by those trying to take advantage of the orphan gravy train The Industry has led itself to lead.

In fact, this reminds me very much of the book of Romans, and the whole problem with the twisted sense of deeds and services, to begin with.  How it's being taught, and by whom... for what purpose and why.... it's supposed to justify the end result, through faith, belief, love, trust and hope in the future.

It's no wonder, then, that most adoption agencies are not only private, but religiously affiliated.

Ever wonder WHY?


(Who will go to Heaven or to Hell?):

    Catholics and Orthodox believe that you go to Heaven by the grace of God, by faith in Christ, plus good works... because the true faith always brings good works, like the lighted wood always gives light and heat... and indeed, love is the measure of faith...
    God will bestow Heaven on all those who depart this life in the grace of God, free from original sin and personal mortal sin, and who are, consequently, in the state of justice and friendship with God.
    Concerning the purification of those just souls who depart in venial sin or who are still subject to temporal punishment for sin.  See  Purgatory  more on Purgatory
    On the lot of those who die free from personal sin, but infected with original sin, see Limbo 
    On the immediate beginning of eternal happiness after death, or eventually, after the passage through purgatory, see Particular Judgment.
    To Hell go all those who die in personal mortal sin, as enemies of God, and unworthy of eternal life. See Sin.

   Protestants believe that you go to Heaven only by faith in Christ, by grace, without works... however, most Protestants I know do not do what they say: The say, "only faith, without works", but then they all do good missionary works, they preach even in the streets, they feed the hungry, help the poor, care for the sick, and they have programs to improve housing and jobs and neighborhoods... they do lots of good works, praise the Lord!.
    Some Protestants claim that once you have accepted Christ, and received Him by faith, you will go to Heaven, no matter how many crimes you may commit afterwards... most Protestants believe you have to repent of every sin you commit after receiving Christ in order to go to Heaven.
    Most Protestants do not recognize the doctrines of Purgatory, Limbo, nor the Particular Judgment.

    The reason of this apparent discrepancy is mainly due to two factors:
1- The meaning of the word "salvation" in the New Testament.
    2- The distinction between the difference "true faith" and "false faith".


robin we upset someone!

Hiya Robin aint been online since Saturday. Just been over to fm who the f##k do they think they are , all the post saying were waiting tina. How true your words about anyone daring to say something they don't like! I have given them my reply though they speak volumes for themselves with the new board they are opening. They are twisted and best forgotten mothers. Let them get on with their proud new project on being able to say what they like about who they like all under the oh so clever total anonymity. Really professional.

Aww, do they miss their pet project?

That's so sweet and sincere to be missed by strangers, donchya think?

I think the real  SAD  issue at hand is simple:  NO ONE, neither mother nor child separated by adoption wants to be forgotten.

Yeh right....

Hi Kerry, Niels, neophyte and anyone else looking in

As you know I am a double Nobel Prize laureate, peace and literature, I also invented penicillin quite some time before Alexandra Fleming first discovered it and I was the third man to set foot on the moon. I have had three brain transplants in the last seven years. I've reunited 300 million adoptees with their natural families. I've overthrown the governments of several third world countries because of their objectionable adoption policies

All of which are just as legitimate claims as many of those made by Trackers International and its "Chair" and by Forgotten Mothers, they do tend to exaggerate somewhat, what more can I say. Except perhaps that they have also have a tendency to lie about and libel anyone else at their will, not the best way to win hearts and minds

My final word here on that subject, others can judge for themselves



current situation

Let's say I was a pregnant teen in England.  What would happen to me?  What sort of resources are there for unmarried pregnant girls?

hi Robin

Hi Robin,

Thank you for sharing part of your story. I've seen you online for a few days now and am really happy you found this place. The information about the situation in England is most welcome. We already have several articles in our group http://poundpuplegacy.org/groups/dirty_deeds_in_child_placement, which aims to be as complete as possible, but it will take years to get to that point.

From the start we aimed to address an international audience, since adoption is such a global issue. American information is still more prominent than information about other countries, so I am glad you can add a British angle to what is going on around here.

Hi Niels

Hi Niels

Good to meet you, I'm pleased to have found this place via Marley's Bastardete Blog and pleased to see it's flourishing. Seen you around too, BTW

And thanks for the link above I shall read and lean

(British Bastard)


Loath though I am...

Loath though I am to give any publicity or kudos to 'adoption.com',  I just wanted to add this link to an old thread of mine to my above posts, re the British situation and my views on access to records here in old Blighty


(British Bastard)



Ditto sentiments with regards to adoption.con, but great thread. Would you mind if I copy your contributions and turn them into an article we can post here?

No objection at all

Note though, I have more than one persona on that thread (whoops, oh dear what a scandal)

(British Bastard)


That's ok...

I have more than one name given, chosen, decided for me as well...

Some would have us believe that would make us a bit off our rockers!

After all, what's in a name, but letters that mean nothing unless seen and recognized, anyway?

The Keating article

It's okay Robin. I use different persona every now and then too. I read the article by Jenny Keating last night and will post that when I have converted the pdf.

Pound Pup Legacy