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removed by author  :(

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I remember him with only

I remember him with only fond memories, He deserved better. ....oh ... and the only school bus there ever was was used for taking us all to church in one trip and one vehicle.

will make corrections

Thank you darkstahr for posting this. I will add your remarks to the case we have and make a disclaimer stating the allegations are disputed.

thank you

I hurts me to find things like this almost 20 years after his death. Since he was not allowed peace near the end of his life .... he should at least be allowed peace in Death.

added

I added this to our archive and made a disclaimer the allegations are disputed. Should your text need further editing, please let me know.

Thank you

Darkstahr thank you for sharing your story. We only have newspaper reports to rely on unless a family member comes forward.

Im sorry Silent1 ....

Im sorry Silent1 .... I did not mean to come off as hostile toward you specifically. I also did not realize the article was based on an old newspaper report. I thought maybe some one was trying to rekindle the flames that burned our family to pieces ... literally.

Memory regression

Darkstahr wrote:
NONE of the children accused my father of anything until after they went to see a Memory regression therapist, and as everyone knows now , memory regression therapy is more often the cause of the memories than anything else.

I have no experience with memory regression therapy, but wouldn't accusations of abuse like this against your father be highly suspect, especially since they came from children who were likely to have experienced abuse/neglect before they were cared for by your parents?

I believe the rate of false allegations of abuse within famlies who have taken in older children is much higher than that of intact families.  Kids who have been through the system know how to manipulate the system.  It's not rocket science.

Dad

Personal Memories

One thing I have learned through my own life-experience:  one person's memories may not at all be the same as another person's memory.

It's this very condition (mental conditioning?) that makes "proving abuse" that much more difficult.

 

Proving Abuse

It's this very condition (mental conditioning?) that makes "proving abuse" that much more difficult.

Or in this specific case - disproving abuse.

Dad

A very real complication

One of the ongoing complications in domestic situations is the "he-said-she-said" course of conversation/allegations.

How does one prove or disprove sexual abuse that took place years ago?

I don't know for sure.

I do know spouses/parents do get wrongly accused of sexual abuse, and I do know this is often associated with a bitter-break-up.  In fact, today I came across a list of "warning-signs" written for men in bad marriages, warning them how "angry moms make false child sex abuse allegations because they work".  The warning list for married men with children (from False Child Sex Abuse Allegations - Lesson 4reads as follows:

Whether demonstrated before or after separation, there are certain actions and attitudes that may indicate that your wife is plotting against you. You should be cautious if you find that your wife/partner:

Speaks poorly of you to your children
Reprimands you for not taking better care of the kids
Complains that you don't feed the children properly
Questions the safety of your usual playtime activities with the kids
Asks you details about your bath time routine with the children
Accuses you of any sexually inappropriate behaviors
Threatens to report you to DSS or Child Protective Services
Makes copies of your emails, internet history or social networking accounts
Turns your children into "spies"
Has abandoned the marital home or demanded that you leave


Additional circumstances that should be considered:

You have had a dysfunctional marriage
Your wife tends to be overly-emotional or attention-seeking
You have a passive or dependent personality
You have children under the age of 8 years old
Your wife interrogates the kids about dad's bath time or sleeping arrangements
Your wife has bi-polar disorder or any related mental or emotional problems
Your divorce is especially contentious
Your wife is very interested in movies, books or TV shows about crime or abuse
Your wife has a circle of trouble-making girlfriends
Your wife has a history of making outrageous accusations against people
Your ex-wife is angry that you have a new girlfriend

In certain circles, this sort of behavior is better known as "Parental Alienation Syndrome".

Unfortunately, none of this really addresses sexual abuse that may have in fact taken place (secretly) between family members, does it? 

As one who has endured years of unspoken, untestified and so-called unproven sexual abuse within my adoptive family, the words of other "family members" means little to me and my all-too-vivid memory.  I don't need to prove what happened to me -- I believe my hang-ups, freaks and fears speak for themselves.  (Nice gift to be given, isn't it?)  However, I have had lots of people ask me, "How do you know if you were sexually abused or not?" (Meaning, they themselves were not sure if they were sexually abused.) 

I don't like the idea of someone (especially a paid therapist) "suggesting" sexual abuse took place to a person struggling with personal problems.  I find this manipulating and misleading and not good for lots of reasons.

Since I myself never experienced "Regression Therapy", can someone explain what happens during these visits?   

rekindle the flames

Im sorry Silent1 .... I did not mean to come off as hostile toward you specifically. I also did not realize the article was based on an old newspaper report. I thought maybe some one was trying to rekindle the flames that burned our family to pieces ... literally.

I make the same mistake frequently.  When "new" cases of abuse are posted here, they're often not "new" at all.  They can be 5 - 10 - 20 - 30 years old.

Dad

myself

I know for sure that I myself was not abused in anyway, yet the girls who went through regression therapy claimed all of us were abused sexually. I have emphatically told them that they are wrong ...at least for sure about me. they still to this day claim I was one of the abused. How can they have "memories" of an event I know for sure did not happen. again not one of them believed the others until after the "therapy" which I refused. i did not want to go in "normal" and come out with rage against a man I knew for sure had never touched me in the ways they were claiming.I have spent the last ... almost 20 years estranged from my family over this. it was like one day they all became different people.

"Group mentality"

One of my very dear friends was sexually abused by her brother.  He abused some but not all of his sisters.... but this truth didn't come out until one of the sisters pressed charges against him.  Was this brother a vile disgusting monster?  Only to those who were hurt and damaged by him and his actions.  Some, not all, within that family saw a side to a sibling that no one should have had to experience.... and only some, not all, saw a son worthy of love, protection, and respect.

Because of my friend, I was able to see how trauma seems to create a bond that generates an Us v. Them mentality.... and it does indeed ruin the sense of unity a family should have.  [Would you believe to this day, over a year after the brother's prison release, my friend's mother still insists all family members embrace their brother because "he's family"?!? ]

I would hate to be forced to like/love/embrace someone who hurt me deeply and severely simply because that person did not hurt  or betray others.  [A perfect example of this is being forced to admire a priest who sexually abused some children, but not all the children in his parish.  Because the priest didn't sexually abuse all children, does that mean he is not a sexually abusive (revolting) person?]

I think it's human nature to hate the idea that a family member is capable of doing horrific things to another person.  However I don't think wishful thinking is helpful if abuse did in fact take place for some, but not all within a group/family.

If nothing else, I think this case proves how one person's experience and perception of events can dictate the feelings one has for another.

[None of it is easy, is it?]

it is not easy

in this case though we, being 21 children and 2 adults, the abuse supposedly took place in front of others, in broad daylight. the accusers claim to have watched the abuse (supposedly myself included) and then had Phil use Hypnosis and drugs to cause us to all forget the occurances until thier therapist uncovered the "memories"

group hypnosis on the fly? in front of everyone? memory altering drugs with no visible side effects?

I have spent many years considering thier positions.... trying to believe them. I wanted to be supportive for my sisters and brothers who made claims.... and I have been fooled by people on occasion .... but I cant find anything in my memories that might support thier accusations. I have to reconsile the past to my own children, as it is, I have told my children the official story and my own perception of the story ...leaving them with basically no final  ... " this is the truth' ... end.

and as a result they have no family ties to any of the Broeckel family.  i strive for a link to the past for my children ... a family heritage.. or at least a connection to where our family came from. i can find nothing i want them exposed to. false, imagined, or real ...... very few of those who "experienced ' these "memories have ever really moved on in life. they are still angry ...bitter people.

 

sadness

I found that over the years the feeling I have on the matter is sorrow.....

not for what was claimed necessarily, but for what was done by the therapist and julie to the family

needless to say ... I have never trusted therapists   :)

[nodding in sad agreement]

Sorrow is an excellent word to describe the loss one feels when something good so quickly turns so very bad.

Sorrow is something I often feel, and it's something that just can't seem to go away.  Maybe in a way, I don't want it to go away because it helps me keep things real in my heart and mind.  [I don't trust therapists, either.... I'd rather feel my true feelings and learn how to cope with them (in smart and safe ways) than take pills that sedate, fog and numb me.]

As one who lost so much, maybe you can help explain something for me... something that has always bothered me....

Why do outspoken victims get blamed for ruining a family?

even if the memories are false

even if the memories are false the accusers believe for real. they were victims. they were abused and there is not differentiating between real and planted memories.

memories are memories.

they are blamed because others dont remember ....real or false

therefore there is no true understanding of what they feel........ and without understanding ...compassion is difficult at best ... and blame is easy

this is what I have restled with for almost 20 years now

 

Finding compassion

Perhaps the most difficult thing a person can do is find compassion when it's just so easy to blame one or two people for a list of problems.  I think compassion requires a person to look at all sides of an equation... and that is not at all easy to do when a person is stuck on Hurt or Angry.  For myself,  I think I've always been a strange pup when it comes to compassion.  Even as a child I always tried really hard to understand other people.  What made them act or do the things they did?  What piece was missing when something fell apart?  My mind was always working... hoping I could explain the unexplainable to myself.

Over the decades I have learned I have a hugely compassionate heart, but it's not one that  forgets and it's not one that can easily forgive. 

People ask me, in private, if I forgive those who hurt me.

I don't know if I forgive them for what they did. Not one asked for an apology, and yet some did do things to improve their old ways, and that is something I do deeply appreciate.  (As long as things improve, and don't get worse, I know I can find some sort of peace for myself.)  One thing that took a really long time to do is forgive myself for being so angry at so many people.

I think it's a bit strange that I could offer my compassion to others, but not accept it for myself.  [Stuff like that still makes me sad... but I know I'm still a work-in-progress!]

I could not imagine what it

I could not imagine what it would be like to forget a part of my life permanently. I mean I remember all the way back to when I couldn't see over end tables and pulling lamps down. Or taking crayons and drawing on the fence...

As far as I know memories are mental images. We are bombarded with 10000 images a day. I could see how some would get confused. I have photographic memory, have since I was little. But how do you forget parts of your life. I suffered threw lots of trauma but I never blocked it. To think that something so bad happened to you it could force your brain to wipe it clear to save you the trauma.... you gotta ask yourself; is it really worth going back to see? Always best to trust your first instinct, (it's probably familure with the part that regressed the memory). I am not a doctor... I am just speaking from experience as I had a mishap that left my memories a little confused for couple of weeks. Getting the memories back would make my heart start beating... like I was re-living the moment.... something I could have done with out. Looking back... the memories were not worth the experience and even some even tainted my own opinion of myself.

I tell you I would pay good money to be able to get my brain wiped, to forget things I have seen and been threw... so I could only imagine whats behind pandora's box for you. If I were you I would choose to forget especially if you can't trust the memories.... I would choose to leave that box shut. People shouldn't try to mess with your brain and you shouldn't let them. The mind and body are an amazing thing if you just put alittle trust in them and keep them healthy. It's very dumb to think we have the knowledge to mess with our brains yet. The only one who should ever attempt to take on your brain is you.

Somethings are just better left trusted that you did the right thing and did the best you could at the time to deal with the situation. And best to keep moving ahead and do what it is you wanted to do. The past is only a compass to find the direction we want to go in the future. A memory is nuthing more then a road sign. In my whole life after I was stolen, I have never had anyone in my life for more then a year....

....ever.

Not easy indeed

While what happens in private between 2 people is only know to the 2, (and they may have different perceptions), I can understand your frustration wiht this:

the accusers claim to have watched the abuse (supposedly myself included) and then had Phil use Hypnosis and drugs to cause us to all forget the occurances until thier therapist uncovered the "memories"

group hypnosis on the fly? in front of everyone? memory altering drugs with no visible side effects?

I don't have much faith in memory regression, and none whatsoever in group hypnosis and drugs which would make you forget - especially in that era (there is talk of a new drug now).

even if

even if he could have ........  as you say there were no drugs then,  and he would have had to give it to all in the family... group hypnosis could not possible have worked on everyone to a point of complete and total blockage. In the modern medical world regression is a frowned on practice. the memories are almost always false or distorted. the very act of asking they person who is "under" implants ideas that grow with every rememberance into something that cannot be distiguished from reality in the victims mind. after a while there is literally no difference between these memories and real memories.

knowing this ... all of the testimony should never have been taken as literal.

but that was then and this is now... and he has been dead for many, many years hindsight is as they say 20/20

and it still doesnt change the effect it had on the memories of the accusers who still believe today that it really did happen

 

A drug that helps a person forget?!?

Excuse my giggle in the middle of a serious discussion.

Can you imagine.... a pill that helps a person forget pain?  Oh, I don't see a new and improved form of mental anethesia being used and abused too much!  <rolling eyes>

 

 

Propranolol - under study

I think there is such a drug in the works. pausing to google.......

http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00648375

Effectiveness of Propranolol For Treating People With Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

This study is currently recruiting participants.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/memory_drugs_sd.html

In a study conducted by Larry Cahill, a neurobiologist at UC Irvine, McGaugh and others in the late 1990s, test subjects were told an emotionally neutral, comparatively boring story illustrated by 12 slides. A second group of subjects was then shown the same 12 slides. The related story, however, was much more emotional, involving a severely injured boy.

When later asked what they remembered seeing in the pictures, subjects in the second group recalled much greater detail about the story than the first group did about theirs.

Cahill and McGaugh then presented the second, emotionally upsetting story with slides to a third group of volunteers who were given a standard dose of propranolol or endurol (another beta blocker). Their memories, when tested three weeks later, were "just like that of subjects who had received the boring story," said McGaugh.

Subjects remembered the story, but without any emotional depth.

Such findings suggest an obvious potential therapeutic benefit: If people who have just experienced a traumatic event could be given a memory-dampening drug like propranolol, they might avoid suffering later psychic damage, such as post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD.

http://post-traumatic-stress-disorder.suite101.com/article.cfm/propranol...

Propranolol (brand name “Inderel”) is a cheap, effective beta blocker used to treat heart problems and anxiety. It is also thought to prevent the onset of post-traumatic stress, when given after traumatic events. This may seem like a promising find, however, many have expressed strong ethical concerns.

"strong ethical concerns"

I love when "strong ethical concerns" become a testing/marketing issue.... especially for a drug that has been used to reduce high blood pressure.

I remember giving Inderal to patients on the floor -- I can't say for certain it reduced anxiety in people, but then, I wasn't paid to prescribe the pills, I was simply paid to monitor the patients taking them.

 

 

ditto:"strong ethical concerns"

Yeah - I can see date rape drug then 'eliminate the trauma' drug so if the victim remembers, it won't seem so bad to the victim :(
Ugh

thank you

you know .... just talking about this " out loud" so to speak has lightened my heart a little on the subject.

I have been living with this for so long... I am one of the only family member who does not believe in the reality of the memories that were "retrieved" and since the family literally disintigrated under these accusations ( most left home like myself, and some have never been heard from again by me) I had been feeling pretty alone. I appreciate having a place to talk about the events with uninvolved people. any time in the past i have tried to discuss my feelings, with the few family members i still have contact with,  ..well ....it has never turned out well. usually it has led to years of them not contacting me or even answering thier emails. for many of my family the last contact was in 2000 when I tried to organize a family reunion. I spent months tracking people down just to have internal "wars" between people start  ....... lets just say .. the reunion never happened.

Thank you for being here :)

AWWWW!

That was very sweet and put a whole bunch of stupid tears in my dumb eyes!

<warm smile>

Pound Pup Legacy