The Emperor strikes back: Pound Pup Legacy shut down over information about Ronald Federici

Yesterday around 9 PM CET, we discovered our website was no longer displaying any of the content we worked so hard for writing and collecting, but instead showed a grim message saying "This Domain (poundpuplegacy.org) Has Been Disabled".

Upon further inquiry with our hosting provider it seemed a complained had been filed over a comment that listed information from the Virginia Department of Health Professions, containing some of the licensing information of Ronald S. Federici. The complaint stated that we had listed personal information of aforementioned person, which was in violation of the terms of service and as a result of that our website had been taken down.

Oddly enough careforchildreninternational.com lists his licensing number too, but since that is a website owned by Ronald Federici, it seems all of a sudden this information is freely distributable. Of course that is in a context which strokes "the emperors" ego, while we remain critical of his work and that of "attachment therapists", whose work in our opinion closely resembles the practices of Ronald Federici.

It seems this is all about appearances and ways to make money. Any critical information about Ronald Federici is bad for business and therefore seems to be under attack. See also:  Attachment Therapist Cabal Led by Ronald Federici and Arthur Becker-Weidman Attempts to Shut Down ACT (Advocates for Children in Therapy).

Although we will not list information that will bring us in conflict with our hosting provider, the actions taken against us, have in fact fueled our vigilance when it come to "attachment therapists" and others that avoid that label, but whose work in our opinion isn't substantially different.

Maybe Ronald Federici can impress some with an alphabet soup of titles and maybe he can make some children only see "the emperor's" reality, or in his own words:

Reality is everything your mom says.

“…Treating Multi-Impaired Attachment Disorders” (2004)

Unfortunately for Ronald Federici, he is not our mom and reality is not what he says it is. Unfortunately for him we will critically watch his practices and those of others that openly claim to be "attachment therapists" and keep informing our readers about a reality that is not as "the emperor" wants us to see it. The stakes are simply too high. When choosing between the well-being of children and an income for some therapist, treating unrecognized disorders, it's not all that difficult to decide what priorities to have. After all who wants a repetition of these cases?:

0

Ronald Federici is now going after AT survivors blog site!!!

Hey, look what greeted us in ye olde inbox today:

-Wayward

p.s. Mind if I post this node on the blog in its entirety?

Re: Ronald Federici is now going after AT survivors blog site!!!

Damn, it doesn't allow the img src tag. Ah well. Here's a link to the screencap:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3029/3252049104_e1059c6381_o.png

technically speaking

So you are not supposed to call Ronald Federici an attachment therapist. It's all getting very technical. We were not supposed to print publically available personal information according to the claim and on childtorture.wordpress.com, you are not allowed to make the statement: "Ronald Federici is an attachment therapist". Which technically is true. He never claimed to be one. He claims to be a whole lot of other things, with titles that are not easily to track down, but he never claimed to be an attachment therapist. So technically he has a point, like technically he may have a point in printing publically available licensing information.

I'm glad in the above blog post I never made the statement that Ronald Federci is an attachment therapist. I do see both people that call themselves attachment therapists and Ronald Federici have a particular approach in common, so I will certainly name them together and place them in a particular category, those therapists that predominantly work with adoptees and children in foster care on attachment issues, based upon otherwise unrecognized diagnoses and treatments with unrespected means, in some cases leading to death or damage to a child. I think there is a case to make for that, which is probably the reason childrenintherapy.org gets away with classifying Ronald Federice as a proponent.

Anyway, you can certainly republish this thread.

In response

We don't really see how the term "attachment therapist" can fall within the grounds of a DMCA complaint, as Federici certainly doesn't hold the copyright to that...but then again, there are a lot of things that we and that child-abusing quack don't see eye to eye on.

(I don't know what a DMCA

(I don't know what a DMCA complaint is.)

But thought I'd add to the discussion here as an AP, that all the APs I know or talk to on-line about Federici have gone to him to have neuro psych evaluations done (basically 2 days of tests to identify learning strengths and weaknesses), not to discuss attachment issues. So, I have always been a bit mystified by the videos, interviews etc which show other things.

Perception

When it comes to matters relating to adoption, I think many people would like to believe all that they are told by certain professionals, because "they know"... as if mistakes and wrong assumptions can't be made by someone who seems very educated.  In that sense, I believe lots of personal perceptions get changed once reality becomes part of the living equation.  

How a child is treated behind closed doors should always be a question in any parent's mind.... because what you think is happening and what may actually be happening are not always one in the same.  Rather than heed all the words spoken/written by parents who have nothing but positive things to say about certain therapies used on foster/adopted/autistic children, I think parents need to read, see and listen to the child's experience -- the one put through the testing and treatment process --  and then decide if one type of therapy works better than another.  Parental consent should not be given to certain treatments, especially if it's known that the child is being tortured and could die as a result.  Maybe, just maybe, these quacks-in-practice could finally be put out of business if parents learned when and why they need to just say, "NO!"

Since we started discussing therapy treatments for adoptees on PPL, I myself have received many emails from parents who have shared with me articles and stories that describe some of the treatments given by so-called trained professionals, (who use certain names as professional reference and influence).  Each of these stories has been sad, scary and very disturbing, and each of these parents have been equally concerned other parents aren't aware of such dangers.  I believe such dangerous treatments should be revealed in a way that offers "fair warning" (risks v. benefits) to those considering different treatment options for their troubled children. 

If you ask me, those who believe inflicting pain, starvation, and humiliation is an effective way to build trust and emotional bonding with a young child ought to have his/her head examined.  [Surely people must know submission to abusive power has it's natural consequences, don't they?]

Milgram experiment

In the early 1960's the Milgram experiment showed how easily people submit to authority figures. So it's no wonder parents are willing cooperating with all sorts of therapists and quacks and maltreat their children along the way. Here is a video that shows some of the practices of Ronald Federici and see for yourself if this is how you would want to treat a child:

Our experience with attachment therapy

I don't know what a DMCA complaint is, either, not that I really care.  I've also never heard of Federici.

Our daughter was diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder at age 6 after almost a year in our home.  We were already familiar with attachment disorders through our parenting classes.  Our son (also placed at age 5 three years prior) never exhibited any of the behaviors associated with RAD.

Our daughter was a  walking checklist  for behaviors associated with RAD.  We sought a local attachment therapist after two major events.  1)  She was self-mutilating in increasingly dangerous ways.  2)  She tried to kill the family cat by drowning him in the bathtub.  There's much more, but these two events led us to seek help for our family.

We looked to the local therapeutic community for help.  One "attachment therapist" came highly recommended, so we set up an initial consultation and ultimately retained her services.  We went once a week (90 minute sessions) for approx six months.

The sessions began with one-on-one therapy (daughter and therapist) while we observed in another room via closed circuit TV.  For the second half of our sessions, my wife and I joined in family therapy time.

The only "holding" therapy came at the end of the session.  The therapist actually coaxed my wife into cradling our 6 year old child in her arms while feeding her from a bottle.  Eye contact was emphasized.  My wife was very uncomfortable bottle feeding a six year old at first.  As her father, I did not participate in the bottle feeding and sat next to my wife with my daughter's feet in my lap.

When I see videos of attachment therapy sessions posted here, I am appalled.  My daughter was not constrained in any way.  There was  never  any yelling, profanity, or physical constraints placed on my daughter.  It was hard enough to convince us to bottle feed our 6 year old daughter.  There is no way we would have consented to some of the "re-birthing" exercises often prominent in the videos posted here.

Was our daughter's attachment therapy the exception, or the rule?  I'm not altogether sure.  How ultimately effective was our daughter's attachment therapy?  I'm not sure of that, either.  Every therapy reaches a plateau, so we ended the sessions after six months.

I'm thinking (hoping) the videos which show screaming therapists (or parents) holding down enraged children during radical re-birthing sessions are the minority.  I can understand the contempt justifiably shown by outside observers, but this was not our experience with attachment therapy.  There's no way we would have stood for it.

If seeking out attachment therapy for our daughter makes us members of  some kind of cult - so be it.  But I'm inclined to believe that the most contemptuous radical examples of attachment therapy (such as the ones posted here) grab all the attention and lead the uninformed to believe this is the norm.  I remain unconvinced.

Dad

The Bully v. The Bottle

I remember when I was young, I found a glass baby bottle in my aparent's house and I decided I really liked to drink from it.  [I used to play mommy to my baby dolls and it didn't take long for me to discover I liked the bottle more than the fake babies did.]   My a.mother didn't say much about me sucking from it, and eventually I stopped using it once the rubber nipple broke and it became clear to me it would not be replaced.  Looking back, there were lots of so-called RAD behaviors that went ignored.  My bad memories are not of the times my aparents were nice to me.... my bad memories all relate to those who bullied me and forced me to do things I did not want to do, but was forced to do, regardless of my own personal feelings.  These are the memories/ triggers that still haunt and hurt me in horrific ways.

Within our pages we have an article that tells the story of a mother, a bully and a baby bottle.... and how relief was brought to a suffering child:  "Controversy trails 'attachment' therapist who runs Chesapeake center"

What saddens me deeply is imagining everything each family member had to endure and get through, just  to feel a modicum of peace. 

What saddens me, too, is knowing how many kids, teens and adults take to a different type of bottle(s) because no one seems to understand what keeps troubling them.

What a "DAD."

I don't know what a DMCA complaint is, either, not that I really care. I've also never heard of Federici.
Congratulations on your stunning ignorance.

You realize that Reactive Attachment Disorder can't be properly diagnosed before the age of 5? Look it up. And by RAD I mean the true, scientific criteria of it, not some bogus catch-all pseudoscience model designed to trap weak-minded, desperate parents. You've been suckered and worked over, sorry to say. And so has your daughter.

My daughter was not constrained in any way.
So you say.

If seeking out attachment therapy for our daughter makes us members of some kind of cult - so be it. But I'm inclined to believe that the most contemptuous radical examples of attachment therapy (such as the ones posted here) grab all the attention and lead the uninformed to believe this is the norm.
Of course you are inclined to believe that. Letting your mind be opened to the greater truths would cast light on what kind of "parenting" you've resorted to.

Is anyone else not unsettled by the notion of this "dad" who easily admits to the possibility of being infected with a cult-like mentality, yet still displays such a level of obtuseness?

I'm not unsettled. Just

I'm not unsettled.

Just because some people're nutters, doesn't mean everyone is.

And I do know what a DMCA complaint is, and I'll be interested to see how such a complaint finally gets resolved. Please keep us up-to-date.

How lovely that you reduce

How lovely that you reduce your daughter to a "checklist" for a bogus disorder!

Even allowing for the fact that you are telling the truth (what you conceive as the truth, at least), the question becomes what part your abilities as a parent (or lack thereof) played in your daughter's behavior.

Ta!

whatever

no all of the RAD cult are f---ing GOD... they are all wonderful and all foster kids are damaged trashed that can only be treated by the RAD cult... and will most likely be damaged trash there whole lives anyway...

he is a licensed psychologist in Virginia who have made millions off of adoptive parents, he does support floor restraints in both videos and his self published books... if they just needed a neuro psy eval they would not have had to go all the way to outside of Wash. D.C. to get it...

nice to know him or his staff has the time to follow even these sites and try to shut up all opposition

sad to see the RAD cult members on this site as well...

From the web site CONSULTING

Moderated

The original comment mentioned some of the consulting positions of Ronald Federici as can be found here see section "Consulting Positions". On grounds of copyright infringement, we decided to remove that content.

end moderation.

but no, he has not connection to attachment or adoption at all... just our imagination... not part of the the attachment therapy movement at all...

Federici staff

Talking about staff and time...

Check this out:

FEDERICI's STAFF 2007:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070810062341/www.drfederici.com/staff.htm

FEDERICI's STAFF 2009:

http://www.drfederici.com/staff.htm

Doesn't look like his business is doing too well for the moment.

funny also

I actually have more of an education than his FBA specialist....

gee, i should market that..

Hahaha, good one!

Hahaha, good one!

not a cult member

I am not a cult member of anything. :) Just wanted to share what I know of Federici's practice. I do know several people who went Federici for neuro-psych evals for their children, because they believed the  local neuro psychs do not see many kids from institutional backgrounds. (at least one family had already been to one local neuro-psych) I know these families well enough to ask whether attachment issues and/or restraint was discussed with them... I will ask them and report back.

I am not denying the Federici videos, or saying restraint is a good thing. I think it has been shown to be a very bad thing.
I am also upset this site was shut down briefly.

The Neil Feinberg video on this site is shocking to say the least. Does anyone know the date of that video?

Federici - BBC - 2000

One man is offering a controversial solution. Dr Ron Federici is an American neuro-psychologist who has devised a treatment plan for even the most extreme cases of conduct-disordered children. He claims it is suitable no matter whether their behaviour lies in neurological or psychological problems. Dr Federici believes that his treatment guarantees two things. Firstly that there will be an 80% rate of improvement in most children. Secondly, that neither the parents nor the children will find it easy.

The film follows two families, one British and one American, as they start to implement the treatment programme under supervision of Dr Federici himself. For at least a month, each child must stay within three feet of their parents 24 hours a day. They have to be totally compliant to whatever their parents want, and if they refuse to obey they are forced down to the floor and held there. Their bedrooms are stripped bare. They are allowed no life of their own. They are never left alone; they are not allowed to play with or see friends. Through a gradual process of reward and punishment the child will eventually be reintroduced to their toys, their peers and the outside world. The treatment can last for months.

At the end of this controversial regime the child's mind should have been literally re-programmed. Dr Federici claims this is the only way the child can progress to developing normal emotions. His critics believe this process may be damaging. But now, thousands of American families have been recommended by word of mouth to do the programme. The question is, does the treatment work and should it be applied?

Further information

Transcript

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/problemchild.shtml

and this is exactly

what adoptive parents see on every site when they go hunting for help for their child

(only these attachment people will work) and then there are all these people posting that only these people can help and they are not as bad as what happened to Candance Newmaker (etc...)

yet oddly enough, Douglas Gosney for example, was at the attachment therapy group sessions with the not so bad one we were involved with at one time...

Candace Newmaker's adoptive mom was sitting right there too, she had no idea what she was walking into... and would have probably been threatend with child abuse charges had she gotten the nerve to walk away from the people killing her daughter...

but you are all right, attachment therapy is wonderful... hats off to ATTACh

FYI

Douglas Gosney is a licensed marriage and family therapist in CA... he hid in Mexico while Candace's trial went on to escape prosecution and to not testify (and had enough money to apparently spend a year and a half down there) he is still in the attachment therapy field... still gets state and federal money to treat these totally damaged "throw away" kids they call them...

he reportedly taught Candace's killers or gave them the idea to recreate birth like that and taught special classes to them on how to do it, just 2 weeks before Candace died...

and he was at the harmless attachment therapy we went to (I would have never gone if I had know...)

that is also why looking up who ever you go to for help is a great idea...

If you don't know, then learn to research.

"AP": Your anecdotal, personal experience is in no way conclusive.

Just because one does not wish to see something, does not mean it is nonexistent. Far from it.

My response

Anonymous

If you are referring to me - it might be easier to use 'silent1' rather than AP.

"AP": Your anecdotal, personal experience is in no way conclusive.

I never said asking 2 parents their experiences meant that was the experience of all parents.

Just because one does not wish to see something, does not mean it is nonexistent. Far from it.

I am not denying anything. Where have I said that Federici does not engage in controversial dangerous holding activities?

Please do not misinterpret my words.

exactly my point as well

"AP": Your anecdotal, personal experience is in no way conclusive.

oh, what you all went through means nothing (all in your heads)

and your all anecdotal successes (or maybe not yours, but the people who claim AT is the end all be all to the foster and adoptive kids problems) are in no way conclusive either...

no, but there are at least 12 dead kids from attachment therapy... just about ever major abuse story related to adoptive parents in the past 10 years has had to do with them doing attachment disorder parenting (re-parenting) therapy, whatever they wanted to call it...

so what do their lives mean?

would you like us to shut up and not speak out about the treatment the kids get in attachment therapy?

and my past experience on the web tells me you are probably one of the many AT therapist who has made enought money off of adoptive parents you have nothing better to do then to try and put down the victims of AT quakery...

I give up

anon, again I assume you are addressing me, 'silent1'.

you are probably one of the many AT therapist who has made enough money off of adoptive parents you have nothing better to do then to try and put down the victims of AT quakery

I am not an AT therapist, a neuro psych, don't work for one, don't volunteer for one, never used one, have no connection to them.

AT therapy HAS caused way too many deaths and other abuses.

But it is not 'most' of the abuses of foster/adopted children. Lots of people beat, shake, or starve kids to death too. Look the cases here http://poundpuplegacy.org/abuse_cases

I will go back doing what I am here for - to document the cases of abuse and death among adopted/foster/institutionalized children.

Oh man have people who

Oh man have people who support this crap been duped. I was probably one of the most disturbed kids with issues you could have ever have met. Once I was left to myself I was able to deal with the issues myself. Had I been thrown in a treatment like that would have just made it worse and not only that but I would not have learned to deal with things on my own, causing ripple effects in my ability to problem solve and self heal as it would have tought me to be dependent on others to deal with my issues... rather then learning on my own.

Any parents who wants to pass the buck onto someone else cause they are stupid self absorbed shitty parents and unable to problem solve on their own that is their own choice. But notice a scary reality... the more this b.s backyard headshrinking grows so does our lack of ability to look inside ourselves for answers. The more we are unable to solve our own problems the more we depend on the system.

If your dumb enough to trust these upper-class habs... then it's safe to say... it is you who pays the price at first... then down the road....your child as they grow up. Relying on people to help your children's behavior is lazy parenting. Drugging your children cause their attention span is short or they are hyper-active is the same thing as giving your children heroin.. only you and their docs say otherwise. But the parents are not the one taking the drugs are they? Nope just feeding it to their children like crackheads sharing hits.

Just because your to stupid to interact with your child and feed there need for simulas and keep their attention locked on you... does not mean you should drug your children to make them as dumb as you. That is in fact very selfish.
And these say quacks who are encouraging you to feed your children these chemicals.. and also telling you to use these questionable methods to do what? Make up for where you lack in brains?

Oh please do tell.... Had I stayed in care and let them drug me .... god only knows what i would be... but by looking at my peers I get an idea pretty fast.

Man hurting your children is not helping them... only a retard with less then 1 working braincell would think otherwise.

All your doing is hurting your child. If your having problems then ask your self and your own parents... before bring your kids to these wackjobs and tormenting them for what you think is the right thing when in reality it's only your opinion. And that of a person who stands to profit if you trust in them they work just like all the other con-artists... only difference is is these criminals pay their cuts and help them destroy families for even more profit so it's okay.

Man I feel sorry for your children who have to suffer these absolutely stupid "treatments".

If child gets hurt then your doing something wrong. But if you pay your cut to the government and hurt a child it's called "in the child's best interests"

Go figure CPS and these quacks who think they are doctors are bed buddies. Just goes to show greed has no limits... not even children and families are safe from this corruption that has infected our society starting from the ruling class and working it's way down into every ave of life.

It's you who needs help... not your children. They only learn what you teach them. Even thou I have never met my father.. or did I know anything about him... but As I grew up and found out... we are identical in beliefs... talents, math and music. Types of cloths, body movement habits.. everything... except he never was in foster care and became a bad person.

That was my experience in care that made me what I was... it is what i have learned since then that made me the man I am today. Thank God I hid on the streets so well... I could not have imagined what it would be like to be robbed of my ability to problem solve... self rationalize and deal with the things that bother me deep down own my own, by my own parents.

Money is the root of all evil ... and any who touch it or like it are instantly able to do evil with out even realizing their doing it. Thats the thing with greed you never know your infected until it's to late. In the quest to make your child perfect cause your not willing to love them unconditionally for who they are your just hurting them and your selves.

No one is perfect. And you should not try to force them to be. The same truth behind foster care and adoption is the same truth that will do more healing then any quaky headshrinking will, by people who make more in a day then I do in 6 months... pretending like they know what they are talking about.

Civility 101

Anon,

Let's please keep the discussion civilised here. Our aim is to expose "attachment therapists" and others that don't want to go by that term, but in my opinion offer comparable "services". The fact that some adoptive parents send their children to attachment therapists and comparable quacks doesn't mean that all adoptive parents subscribe to these practices.

We are a platform to document and discuss various wrongdoings in child placement, but we are not a platform to bash other people for no good reason.

oO Compared to what I was

oO

Compared to what I was going to say I thought I was civil. I'll keep that in mind.

Ripping into rage

I had to smile.... for years I used to have real hard rage-issues.... the kind that would make me want to rip into anyone/thing that triggered certain thoughts and feelings.  I know that temperament used to scare people.  [Looking back, I can now see how/why that unspoken rage kept me so quiet when I was around people... I hated the idea of more people hating me.]

Over the past few years I've been trying something new... I've been controlling much of that internal-rage with deliberate conversation... and it IS amazing to me how much better I'm able to communicate my deeply felt feelings to other people, without insulting/hurting those who simply want to understand why I feel the way I do about certain things.  When I let my heart and mind run wild, I can easily get myself in trouble -- but when I think about the message I want others to see and understand, and I try to use specific examples (to prove my point), I like to think most of my words and sentiment can be easily understood by most of the people I want to reach. 

There will always be those exceptions.. and as much as I still struggle with this, I like to believe I have gotten much better with my skills in communication, especially when it relates to adoptees, abuse, and people who refuse to see certain truths.

 

See I know there are other

See I know there are other like me out there. Keeping silent... saying nuthing. I don't speak to those who want to understand why I feel the way I do. I am speaking to those who say nuthing or can't say anything.

But want to. I share what I do in hopes others will see the shame that keeps them silent is not their shame to be burdened with. And silence and politeness gets nuthing done, helps no one.

Many are so mad they don't even know how to express it... or how to put it into words. Some don't even understand why they are mad. So I speak the way I do more boldly using the feelings they share with me and the ideas we discuss at our support groups..... you don't truly think all this truth and turmoil comes from my lips alone do you?

I speak for those who I end up losing randomly... Watching another friend getting buried because keeping silent about the hell we suffer all inside... driving her to insanity. And everyone responsible just gets to walk away. Dee... spoke out loud knew she was angry.... but never knew who to be angry at...

I know that feeling... and I know members of our support groups have found this site and a few became users even I think. If you think what I say sounds angry you really wouldn't want to be in a room full of us as they realize who is responsible for all this misery that got it's greedy hands on their families.

Go to jail and sit with us and you will get a very distinct feeling of angry and hatred. I have seen the most angry people uncontrollable people even scary to me... once they know where to point that anger and an effective way to do it... they change.... they become self controlled and focused... purpose.

I am told to use anything I see fit from our group discussions to use.
If my or our anger over what happened to us as a result of stupid dipsticks offends people.... then perhaps they should stop doing it.

The thing about vicious circles... they always start somewhere and always end somewhere else. And it's good people who step up to the plate with no remorse or fear or hatred or il will who end them... and it's always greedy stupid people who start them.

The people who have grown up in care to become some of the worst violent criminals started somewhere. Where the system hopes to perpetuate them.... people like myself by saying what we do.... we are only saying what 99% of us are thinking. So instead of thinking their is no hope... they know there are people out there and they are not alone.

Sometimes the only way to get threw to an angry person is with angry words.

Like firemen burn parts of forests to prevent massive forest fires...
Because the system refuses to admit it's criminal activities lack of ethics and moral accountability for the lives of children... the victims have no where to turn noone to talk to noone who understands... in that situation so many of my friends are gone... cause when they need someone or needed support or needed to know they were not alone... they found noone... something that if you have been in the system you know is something you will most likely never see again.

Living with that for a childhood and seeing that as your future there is only one way out... pushed there by a government to cowardly to step up to it's mistakes... and take responsibility.... since that won't happen...
More children's blood will continue to fall on the hands of the public who choose to do nuthing to help.

As a child from care and something most of us agree on who are from foster care if your not part of the solution you are the problem.
And the problem is everything is corrupt. Nuthing in the government can be trusted... and they have breached the agreements with citizens all threw out history that were made for a reason. When it comes to children and other victims like myself.... anger is the only language we speak.

if the system doesn't like it... they better get used to it... cause their is so many little me's on the way... who probably lack the self control I have. In fact the jails are already pretty much full with us. But I guess they just kinda missed something. They are creating more and more me's faster then they can lock us up.

The fact a person like me exists should kinda be taken like and early indication that you screwed up and momma said knock you out!
Well my grandma asked me to, not my mom... but you get the point ;)

3 Generations know about their government and share the same fear of them. That is not a fluke. That is not a chance happening. That is the result of government breaching rights playing god... and over stepping the privileges we gave to them. "To stop bloodshed"....they said. "We need to be civilized" "The government works for the people".

Bullshit...

All of it is B.S.

The government does not work for the people... infact we the people fear the government. We the people are ruled by fear and greed. Not by mutual reasons. Not by democracy.... not even out of respect. Not out of the future of our children and their children.

If your not angry... then go back to your prescription drugs and let the rest of us deal with this reality you all let us get trapped into, cause while people defend this system every minute of every day it's destroying innocent peoples lives murdering and letting children be murdered.. letting families get robbed sending their children off to die in the upper-class's war over oil and power... using terrorism to make everyone give up their rights and take it up the ass...

if the government had tried this crap 70 years ago... we the people would have got up and kicked the shit right out of them.... Now ....people can hardly get off the couch to check outside to see whats actually happening.... let alone actually care about it. Noone has any idea whats actually going on. But the one thing they do know is corruption is everywhere in all facets of government and big business who both happen to be obvious bed buddies.... but are just to lazy or self absorbed to care. All threw out our history books their are warning that people wanted to do.. this... they wanted people so lazy and uncertain about anything they could do anything they wanted to you and you would probably never ever realize it.

I am pretty sure they succeeded cause everything our forefather's warned us about is accepted as "Thats just life"
"nuthing you can do about it, thats the system for you." Amazing how such simple thoughtless mindset allows a system and a class of people to do what ever they like and get away with it... while we watch them do it..

The pen is mightier then the sword. The world you live in is proof. But like a sword it has a doubled edge. Words can change things to a very disturbing degree or a very positive degree, but what good is the pen if you don't speak their language?

Alot of have to ask what is the point of having a government that hurts us and victimizes us like a pack of wild cold hearted robots? The government is not just supposed to work for the upper-class... it's supposed to work for everyone. This is not fact the government works for it's self...which many of us can find little or no proof to the contrary other then opinions of more upper-class people who have enough money to make their opinion the dominant one.

Funny how no poor people make laws isn't it? If we did... their would be alot less rich people... and laws that made sense to everyone ..., not just the people who made them.

My only anger I have is the fact that I am stuck here on this rock with people who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.... pretending that we want their leadership... and when most don't want it.... and say something they are labeled whatever is popular at the time it falls on deaf ears...

I guess back in the old days we would get stoned to death in the town square so I suppose many of us should consider our selves lucky...

I am not anti-government or anti-system. If our government was not corrupt and the system broken to hell.... and everyone lying to us about it... and blaming us the people for breaking it... and saying all the side effects of this massively broken system is our faults... all the while the system saying "We are protecting you from yourselves" if it was not corrupt I would not exist and you would not be reading these words. people have a choice stand up fight and fix their government or stand by and watch us fall into a deep hole we will never get our selves out of. The elite few who run the show do so with out our consent. despite what ever your boobtube has lead you to believe.

When your all on the right track what does anyone have to argue about? Evil now lives in the place we call the "Grey area" A place the government/upper-class created so that they would not have to abide by the same laws as the rest of us have to... as long as they have the money to do so.

The system says bend over and you the people say bend over and say: "Right on,thank you, do it again"
You can tell me you don't... but if you didn't we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with. Man I wish I was born 15 years earlier when most people we still reasonably sane and not completely brainwashed. Guess that acid sure screwed most you up more then you realized...

Kinda like getting up the but with a battering ram isn't it?

Tell.. me are you a top or a bottom?

A humbling experience

My rage was so huge, I took it out on myself, and lost the ability to speak for weeks.

When I was recovering from my self-inflicted head injury, I had to re-learn how to speak and communicate.  Never before did I have such moments of silence where I had the sort of time to think about all the things and people that led me to an act that could have killed me.  [How dare I let them have such power over me?  Truth is, I was weak.]

You know what I learned?  NO ONE is worth the loss of my children or me.... and no one is going to bring me so low I would abandon my family like "they" (so-called family) abandoned me.  If death is going to claim me, let it be by nature, or the hands of someone else -- not me.  [If I don't value my life and my words and all I can bring to this world, who will?]

There's a part of me that believes the part of my brain responsible for my rage was somehow "damaged" after my head injury.  There's another part of me that believes a new-found fear brought itself a new breed of maturity into me.  Either way, I hate the idea of others going through what I went through, especially knowing so much of the hurt and pain could have been prevented, had only some calm rational adult sat with me and listened long enough to care and help me solve some serious problems caused by some seriously deranged people. 

The greed, the corruption, the absolute power and profound abuse within ALL "family services" must be stopped, and the messages have to come from everyone.... not just those royally pissed and ready to start an ambush.  Like my Adad used to tell me, "You get more bees with honey than you do with shit." 

Your last question reads:  "Are you a top or a bottom?"

I had to laugh because I had things shoved in me both ways, and taken the same way from so many sides so many times... I only know one thing:  I'm merely a girl who wants the inhumanity to end.

lol.

"In both holes" it's unfortunate I know what you mean. It's amazing to me as a child I experienced those things in foster care while the people's children who put me in those situations will never know that their normal life came at the cost of my innocence and suffering. The idea of trying to work with people not from care to change the system compares to asking a plumber to fix a computer. So I don't even try to communicate with "bees"...cause over the last 20 years the "bees" have paid our abusers to do this to us with their tax bucks. In order for the system to change it has to be 1 of two ways. And it has to be done by people who were in the system.

A) Sue the shit out of them. Then when your done do it again. Publicly drag them threw the mud all the while exposing things people would not know unless they lived in care. 400 people where I was born stepped up to the plate do do this.... notice how they are not filling up these sites? Like me they know their is no point in talking to the public as they are just as much responsible for what happened to us in care as the people who did it to us. The idea of standing side by side with these same people makes us all want to vomit. So I speak so they don't have to. But rest assured we only got one thing on the mind. The demise of the system in it's current murderous, abusive state and jail time for those who shaped it that way over the last 20 years... if this fails then plan B something many of us have considered....

B)Civil War

In history the people have gone to civil war for less important things then their children. I don't know about you but my self and many many others willing to fight for what s right despite the personal costs to ourselves... See but this is the year 2009 the idea of civil war in the manner of our forefathers fought it is barbaric and savage. And with technology so advanced, civil war can be done with out people getting hurt. But we have faith it will not have to be considered in the future, not cause we expect the upper-class to have a miraculous change of ethics over-night... but because we have faith that even criminals feel remorse and eventually will do the right thing... many us us did.

You get more bees with honey. Yes and the more bees you get the more likely you are to get stung.
To be honest I prefer to stick to my own kind.
"own kind?" you ask.

The common theme from almost every last one of us.. we all came from poor families... and the rich used us and our families as their own personal punching bags. When we try to ask the rich to stop they laugh at us and threaten us with police. When we ask them for the same rights they have they say "Oh but you do, go talk to lawyer" (Go figure another upper-class)

Most of us are positive our families did nothing to us... minus they were easy targets for the upper-class who want children and have proven they will do anything to get them.... sacrifice who ever they have to....

We know our place the upper-class have made sure to be very clear about the rights we don't have and how we will never be equal to them. It's just to sad that they are to dumb to notice: We don't want to be like them.. that is why we fight the system they so cherish.

The people are slowly dividing into two groups.... the haves and have nots. It's really funny that the haves think they are the more powerful of the two.... but anyone with money can make others do what they want... that is the nature of greed and want.

Kindness and double sided words are the tools of those who abused us. The kindness they pretended to show.... the high horse many of these workers sit on is only seen from a kid in cares view. many of us can't bring ourselves to be like them... in anyway even the little things like being nice to us even though they truly didn't care and were just waiting for their pay checks. That is what it means to be the upper-class....So many of us won't just be nice to the public cause we want something from them... we don't want anything really... the kids need a change they are the ones who need it.... if the system gets fixed we don't stand to benefit... if the system does not get fixed they stand to keep benefiting... off the lives of abused children.... so we say the system is broken they say it's not... who you gonna believe?

Being polite is something that died with democracy...

Many know nuthing else but anger... it's all the system/upper-class ever showed us. Very few are able to keep their anger in check and use it as a tool..... very very few of us... many of us as soon as we start talking about the system and those who run it we start frothing at the mouth and want to kill them. Some of us have even tried... sadly... you can't imagine the rage of being violated over and over and over and over and over and over and watching these upper-class pieces of garbage do it to more children... while they make the public pay them to do it as a public service... if your not mad about this there is something wrong with you not vice versa as the upper-class so claim.

So many stay silent and share with me what they would like said. We have used it as a therapy tool with 99% success.
Letting the anger out and sharing it with those who forced us into these lives as children has a very positive effect we see it time and time again.... well not so positive for people reading this... but unforutnitly their feelings and consideration and politeness was something the public forfeited the minute they let human trafficking become a normal and wildly accepted trade while ignoring their victims.

If you kinda and polite people fail... getting the system to do the right thing... I assure you the rest of us will not. I type what I do so you don't have a site full of angry traumatized people suffering from post traumatic stress disorder as a result of all the love and kindness and politeness we experienced in the hands government run foster care and family court systems.... in other words the upper-class's hands while they play god...

I think many of us learned to keep to our own kind.... because deep down they know not everyone is responsible for what happened to them... but they are responsible for letting them get away with doing what they did to us as children. I personally If they can't look at our anger face to face over the decisions they have made then they have not even the sliver of a right to think they can make them. And I am one of many willing to put out money where our mouths are to stop them. Children deserve love, education, culture, ethics principles, family.... not the government pretending to care, while killing so many along the way ..with out even bating an eyelash. And then attacking those of us who survived for speaking out about it.

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you. Okay well I am an overly intelligent pissed off adult now, so my turn to do onto others as they did on to me. Their feelings are irrelevant, their hopes and dreams are irrelevant. The truth is all that matters.... and the truth is offensive like it or not, the truth is never pretty.

I will express to readers this is only my opinion and that of my peers.. not of this site or those who run it. I am a guest here with the privileges. My posts consists of notes from others in groups.. emails I have read and of course my own experiences... since they are seem to be saying the same thing making these posts is a cake walk.

I will say this and only this... the upper-class are the only ones who think if things don't get better fast for all of us and not just them.... that their won't be an issue of historic proportions.

You gottta ask yourself... if your not willing to fight for the future of children and a better future for ourselves what are you willing to fight for? Cause I tell you the idea of heading into the future while the rich ride on our backs it not a future I am willing to accept... I will fight to ensure that is not the case till I am a old man.... if need be. The future and the lives of our children is more important then ourself and our quests for power. The rich are the only ones who think otherwise... it's almost like they are not even trying to hide what they are anymore... they know that most of you couldn't raise a hand to stop them....

Or of course chalk up my post here as some crazy ranting..lol....

No matter how we say it no matter how kind or polite or mean or anything.. it has not mattered.... it has changed nuthing. Good men stand by while evil triumphs.

No one ever said I was a good man, I just do good things cause I choose to... if the government/upper-class weren't such lazy stupid meat sacks... it wouldn't be so easy for me....

I don't want to collect bees... I want to collect hornets....

Going O/T just for a minute...

One of the really huge issues I have with this whole adoption industry is this belief that all children "put-in-care" come from poor families.  When you consider adoption agencies like Gladney or Bethany, I cannot help but think... how many pregnant mothers (from good middle-class families) are being told adoption is the most loving option they can give their unborn child?  When I read about these types of coersive tactics, I tend to start asking:  "Where is the strength in family-committment these days?"  [Does anyone know how much money is made by those ("adoption recruiters") paid to tell young mothers they are not fit to parent their own children?!?]

I believe poverty is more than a money issue... I believe poverty is a spirit,... an essence... one that says, "I'm not willing to give any more to those who make mistakes."

In this regard, I see us all living in a world where so many morally bankrupt people are deciding things based on money and availability.  For instance, when you look at the money being generated by places like Gladney, or Barnardo's,  I cannot help but ask, "How does a person learn family responsibility and accountability when so many think selling a child to strangers is the "right-thing" to do?"   In this sense I see adoption as being a form of abortion... a type of child-removal that leaves pro-lifers feeling good about themselves because a fetus wasn't put in a dumpster.  I suppose that theory would be really great if not for one small detail -- there are LOTS of adoptees being abused within their "new" families... there are LOTS of adoptees committing suicide each year, and there are LOTS of "saved babies" wishing they were dead. 

What sort of message is being sent each time a young parent is told it's best to get rid of a "problem" through adoption? After all, are we to believe Family Values exist only in adoptive families?  Are we to think only first-parents can harm, neglect or sexually abuse children?  [People can't be that stupid, can they?]

The unmet needs are so many... and they are not limited to the children put in poor-care sanctioned/supported by various government/religious organizations.... there are young parents who need to be taught not all in adoption is as it seems... there are children who need to learn not all state-approved authority figures are horrific scary creatures.   More people DO need to see how the dreams promised through adoption are NOT coming true.... not for the parents and not for the children.  In fact, more people need to see how these adoption fairy-tales for some are nothing more than life-long nightmares for others.  [But how will the equal-time for life-stories be shared when there are so many pontificating, supporting and endorsing the virtures of adoption?]   Does the public not see how adoption makes dream salaries and lifestyles for those who have mastered the language of adoption?  Does the public not see the huge cracks and gaps in child safety, because adoption has become such a lucrative private business? Does the public not see the schemes and scams ruining lives because of the enornous greed within the adoption industry?  For those who know how to work the system, certain dreams do come true, as they often include comfortable homes, salaries, medical and retirement packages and vacation options... all one has to do is read about people like the Holts to know exactly what I mean.  [Read "Saints or Sinners?  You decide. "]

In a world filled with those who have and those who do not, there are small groups so removed from the fall-out caused by adoption they are unable to see the sort of damage the child placement industry is causing. Where is the benefit if families are getting hurt from such distance and removal? [The benefit goes to certain pockets, but that's another issue, isn't it?]

I personally like how PPL keeps a focus on abuse post-placement, because I strongly believe these stories give a more realistic look at how misleading the promise of better child-care is through CPS and Family Services.  Like in my case, adoption didn't prevent me from being abused, but adoption did make it possible for people to make money.

If there is one issue we cannot afford to ignore or dismiss it is the truth that abuse post-placement does exist... in all sorts of ways... and I think it's our human/moral duty to put an end to as much of this poor treatment of people as much and as quickly as we possibly can.

I like the bee-analogy used here: 

I don't want to collect bees... I want to collect hornets....

I'm different in the sense that I want people to be aware of the swarm that can sting, poison and even kill innocent people.  I want people to know where those nests and honeycombs are kept and protected, so they can be avoided.  People need to be warned about the nature of money honey-making, and that warning needs to come from those who know many different sides of the same story of milk and honey (or as I see it:  pain and salvation).  These are stories that need to be told in all sorts of different languages.... and yes, in many cases, I want these stories of our private lives to leave a very bad taste in the mouths of curious people.  [Maybe the bad taste will make more people stand and say they want something better than what's been sold  as "good" and "ideal" for generations.]

Call me silly and stupid, but I like to think positive change is still possible... it will just take an enormous dedicated effort from many many strong people to make the sort of changes children and families need.  Will this change take place in my lifetime?  Only God Knows.... but I dare myself to be silly, stupid AND hopeful.

Well said. I try not to talk

Well said. I try not to talk about adoption to much as the fact is I know very little about it... other then I was adopted 5 times and given back 5 times. To me is was no different then a foster home but seemed alot stranger. I am pretty sure all foster care is is a side effect of the adoption industry... after all isn't that where they stored us like brainless cattle waiting to sell us to the butchers?

I wish more people would share more about adoption with me but I understand I will never truly be able to relate to it. Kinda makes talking about it harder. I know most people from adoption stay out of our groups I know we have to adoptees in our grouphome but they were adopted after spending 3 years in foster care before they were sold to a pimp in L.A... And the other sold to a sweat shop, she was of oriental decent. There are things happening in foster care and adoption I am not even willing to talk about as I am not sure how to shape it into words...with out doing more harm then good... mostly as I know very little of adoption.

Since most people don't share their feelings about it openly other then to promote their business or support of that business it's hard to get a clear understanding when I am watching as an observer. With foster care people send me piles of stuff... I am sure I am a few moths behind and I got 4 email addresses to deal with it all. I can not post most of what I read here... as it would look something like this:

%$$%# ^&^&&&!!!!!!!!
The Stupid ^&%$^%%^ (**(*&^&**&!!!!!!!!!
%%$# $#@#$ @#$@@#!!!!!!!!
I hate the foster care system and the %^#%$%$# who run it! Kick their %$%$# #$@ for me!

That is one of the more popular types I get...

I remember a time when I got those mails and they were directed at me by the Pro-corrupt busted ass system side...
I think it was under 3 days from the day i put up my first site that the emails started. I swear the have trolls looking for people like us then finding what ever they can to shut us up.
The adoption Industry and foster care system co-contributers in the biggest most corrupt scam of all time. The buying and selling of children.

More people should share their understanding. Natural you understand that this is not exactly a pro-industry site... and alot of positive stuff said about the system will be attacked... with personal experience and the faces of dead children and those who survived to tell their side...
Perhaps if the other pro-industry would stop kicking us out of their sites and debate us in their own domain perhaps they could be the ones doing the attacking... but hiding behind lies... and praying people will believe your side is right... will not change what those of the system are about to do to the industry of child trafficking....

I do know not all of us are poor... who are in the system... But in my groups of foster care the only ones who made it out were the ones who took off from the system. While you were being abused in adopted homes and living a nightmare I probably will never understand despite my own background we took our chances with everyone else...
It didn't go well for most of us... we were not prepared... and many of us got slaughtered. Sound like a bad story doesn't it? Something that should not be happening in this century but I seen it, lived it, experienced it.
Seen it with my own eyes... and survived to compare stories with others like myself.. at least those who made it out in one piece and still sane.... The government knows this is happening.

It's why they sent the police into the streets with new laws giving police power to jack up anyone on the streets.... then when they realized us runaway foster kids where out in the middle of the streets sqeegeing and washing car windows and panhandeling all for the public to see... if people had thought to ask where are all these street kids and homeless people are coming from instead of beating them and calling the cops on them and picking on them... they would have seen what the government and CPS and the police were fighting so hard hide and remove off the streets any way they could. If people had realized the sheer amount of homeless who started out in care who ran away or aged out of the system... the government, these CPS agencies who are collecting money would have been in some serious deep shit... People have no idea of the realities they have created for children to suffer threw with their ignorance and arrogance and lack of that thing that makes us human...... the ability of knowing right from wrong.

This all happened right in the publics eye... the media knew it.. the Government building talked about it so they knew as well. it was discussed in city hall meetings in the capital... But how come the public was never informed..
The city hall meeting in Ottawa I know why nuthing was heard by the upper-class from us.. they were to busy pointing and talking about us almost each other.. pointing and lauphing, like they never ever truly left kindergarten.

I got up and left and that was the last time I tried to work with their kind. It's just pointless... and life of privilege leads to a life of ignorance. As very intelligent person I find I have never been able to reduce my mentality low enough to converse with people of privileged at their level... seems even being intelligent doesn't make it easier...id' probably have more luck talking to a donkey...

Trust me I have tried.. my brain just can't wrap around the things they find interesting or important. Which sucks, as i'll never be good to host a charity event...lol.. I just find people who struggle threw life use their brain more and are down to earth... rich people... I gave up long long ago... it just now offends me to be in their presence... And chances are if I ever walk into the Parliament building and the people start talking to me like I care what they have to say Someone is leaving in lot of pain and it won't just be me. So I stay away from places like that...

My Doc says it's from the PSD I suffer from. I could probably get away with it in court cause they wouldn't want people to find out how I got PSD in the first place, but probably best not to push it.... lol... so I stay away from places filled with those kinds of people.

The rich created this gap between us and tried to drop us down into it. There the only ones who can bridge that gap. But their pride will never let them. To bad... could you imagine if we were truly equals? the rich and poor I mean, the sky wouldn't even be the limit.

Instead were stuck under them while they stand on our heads to remain afloat while we suffer and drown in the glory and misery of the rich and privileged while they steal us from our families and then try to sell us to the first person with $10 000 and a job... then lock us up when we are not happy slaves.

This whole situation is very black and white. The grey area is where the government tries to keep these topics in as we the people have no power there... well we do...but if we try they will lock us up. It's just amazing how everything has doubled standards... even thou the rich and dumb claim that is not true.

Kerry...

You said:
"In this sense I see adoption as being a form of abortion... a type of child-removal that leaves pro-lifers feeling good about themselves because a fetus wasn't put in a dumpster."

Well said.  In my eyes, I saw the door of the dumpster open (the door of the foster/adoption home) and, without thought or care, the child being shoved out and then in...  Out of a home or a body; into a house full of evil clowns or a wooden box. 
I see all the people standing around, applauding and feeling good about themselves.  Feeling that they had solved some big problem; when what they really did was split that problem and cause more.
Those of us who were not of much importance as children, can certainly relate to this.  And those who were a part of the system, know even better.
Teddy feels so much...

What did I ever do to deserve this... Teddy

Welcome back

WOOHOO! Welcome back online (yet again)!

Let's make sure it's for good this time, yes? Federici can't know what he's gotten himself into...

Pound Pup Legacy