When should a child go into care?
See also:
- Family justice: the secret state that steals our children
- British social worker speaks out
- Are over-zealous social services acting on orders to meet adoption quotas?
- Plan to fast-track social workers
- Social workers who snatched four-day-old baby put her up for adoption over unproven abuse claim
- What is being said in the Care Profiling Study
- Families Torn Apart:
- Adoption system is UK's shameful secret
- Mother flees abroad with her son to escape social workers
A senior social worker wanted to have Baby P put into foster care before he died after months of abuse at home but was overruled, the BBC has learned.
So, how do social services decide when children should be taken away from their parents?
Andy McFarlaneBBC News
Tuesday, 18 November 2008
The horrific case of 17-month-old Baby P has led to some to call for a review of the "received wisdom" that children are better off with their parents.
With the NSPCC estimating that one child is killed by a parent every 10 days in the UK, many say it is time to look again at the care system.
Currently, the police have powers to take a child away temporarily if there is deemed to be an immediate risk to the child's safety.
But government guidelines say these should only be used in "exceptional circumstances." Long-term cases require a court order.
'Significant harm'
Most social services referrals result in a series of meetings between the family, teachers, health workers and police, who decide whether a child is at risk of "significant harm" and should be placed on child protection plans.
There were 35,000 such children, some not yet born, as of 31 March this year. The British Association for Adoption and Fostering says a further 64,000 were in local authority care.
But putting a child into care is not straightforward.
"Magistrates look at whether efforts have been made to help parents, through parenting classes, help with finances or ways of playing with their children," said Nick Frost, professor of social work at Leeds Metropolitan University.
"If they haven't given the parents that chance, social workers could be quite severely criticised."
The law dictates a child's wishes, background, emotional and educational needs must be considered, alongside the risk of abuse or neglect and the capability of the parents, before a care order can be granted.
So, why is it assumed children are better off with their parents?
Prof Frost said being shifted from one foster home to another can lead to children losing faith in society and falling into crime.
Sue Woolmore, of the NSPCC, said children are more likely to thrive with their own family because they maintain a sense of belonging and identity.
She said a lack of resources meant there was a shortage of skilled foster carers.
"You can't just pick up a child from one environment and put them into another without building bridges," she said.
"Instead, local authorities will look at the extended family to see if they can care for the child.
"Usually it's better for them to go to the same school to maintain friendships."
Most children taken into care are able to return home once the risk is removed, for example if a parent comes off drugs or stops seeing a violent partner.
Supervision 'crucial'
But Prof Frost said deciding when to refer a case to the courts in the first place is not easy. Two people could assess the same case and still come to different conclusions.
"We work in a world where there's a lot of pretty poor parenting and children with bruises and it's difficult to keep perspective," he said.
For this reason, he said, good supervision from managers was crucial.
A government-funded National Children's Bureau report last year said children who were put into hospital because of neglect or abuse were "in danger of falling through the net" because overworked staff were failing to identify those at risk.
But Dr Peter Sidebotham, associate professor in child health at Warwick Medical School, said professionals generally get decisions right.
He said in most abuse or neglect cases, the parents still genuinely loved their children but economic or emotional issues made it difficult for them to be good parents.
"Even in adverse circumstances, most children have a built-in resistance and a lot will do well," he said.
The important thing for professionals was to put the child - and not simply the parents' rights - at the centre of decision-making, said Dr Sidebotham.
However, he said professionals felt under pressure because of the "fear of being seen to be labelling abuse when it isn't there" and often held back from doing so until the signs were irrefutable.
Allowing professionals to intervene earlier, while not necessarily taking the child into care, could bring benefits, he added.
Without more resources, this is unlikely to happen.
Around £400m is spent on foster care in Britain, while the Association of Directors of Children's Services says authorities in London spend on average £62,000 per child in care every year.
There is no suggestion finances dictate whether children are taken into care.
Mrs Woolmore said local authorities spend significant sums providing support to children who are subject to protection plans.
Violent incidents
But she said most children who die because of abuse or neglect do not fall into this category.
The extent of the problem was revealed this year by a Cardiff University survey of casualty departments.
It suggested there were 8,067 violent incidents against children under 10 last year, up from 3,805 in 2006.
But because social workers are required to spend time with those on child protection plans, they are often frustrated because a lack of finances means they cannot help those who do not meet that threshold, Mrs Woolmore added.
Most professionals agree in a liberal society you have to leave an element of risk.
But as to how best to manage that risk to ensure there is no repeat of the Baby P case, the debate will go on.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7735464.stm
Related Articles:
- Baby P: the full health dossier
- Timeline: Key events in baby case
- Baby P: Trio who caused his death
- In Pictures: Baby P's short life
- Child abuse 'missed' by register
- Councillors meet over Baby P case
- Case worker wanted Baby P in care
- Child protection plans revealed
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Cause of death?
Can anyone disagree this case represents the depth and scope "neglect" brings child protection services?
Many would like to blame the mother... but seriously, given HER history with social services, is it any wonder this type negligent adult behavior gets repeated over and over again?
How does this cycle of adult negligence end if social services do not improve their standards of operation?
For the record
If a patient ( any age) was brought to a health-care professional, and that patient died because of professional negligence, what would the average person want done to that professional?
If a patient (any age) was brought to a hospital, and the care given by the staff was so poor, that patient died from complications THAT COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED, what would the average person want done with that negligent staff?
How many average people would want to receive the services rendered by an agency that is known for it's neglect and absence?
I believe THAT's what the Baby P case represents: professional negligence. I also believe this is far from being the first time action against SS negligence has been cited as a leading cause of a child's death or injury. Baby P simply is the most recent face that's gracing the news.
For whatever reason, people -- from the law makers, to the supervisors, to the workers in poorly staffed services -- are getting paid to work, but they are not doing their job when it comes to reviews, assessments and recommendations. This failure in follow-up is not helping the people who need guidance and assistance. As a result, broken families are becoming a bigger problem because they are more shattered and damaged from years of ignored abuse.
All one has to do is look at the number of generations caught in the cycle of doom unreformed social services brings for itself: how many times does the child touched by social services become an adult statistic that shows abusive, negligent and irresponsible behavior? From victim these children become violators, yet no one can see the pattern?
What is this saying about the services being approved and supported by state officials?
I remember some one once telling me, "The working definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results."
With this in mind, I truly believe there are many insane people working within the child protective/placement system.
But hey, that's my unpaid, unprofessional, personal opinion.
If that patient is uncooperative...
Kerry wrote:
If a patient ( any age) was brought to a health-care professional, and that patient died because of professional negligence, what would the average person want done to that professional?
If that patient is uncooperative with his treatment plan, would you hold the medical professional responsible? If that patient actually continues and accelerates the behaviors (against medical advice) that contributed to their illness, would you hold the patient primarily accountable? I would hope so.
Where does the patient's personal responsibility factor in your decision?
If a patient (any age) was brought to a hospital, and the care given by the staff was so poor, that patient died from complications THAT COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED, what would the average person want done with that negligent staff?
If the patient's care did not meet established professional medical standards, then by all means appropriate action should be taken. If the patient died from complications as a result of behavioral choices he made counter to his medical treatment plan, what would the average person want done with his medical caregiver?
As a medical professional, please feel free to advise your patients to stop smoking and enter a smoking cessation program. Shall we hold you responsible if your patient refuses to do so, time and time again?
I suppose a timely removal would have prevented further abuse and subsequent death, but then again, child removal isn't looked at kindly on this forum, is it?
But I'll bite... at what point would you have removed this child?
How many average people would want to receive the services rendered by an agency that is known for it's neglect and absence?
And how many "average" people would look upon this case and assign at least some personal responsibility to the ones who acutally abused and/or neglected their child, resulting in the child's death?
I believe THAT's what the Baby P case represents: professional negligence. I also believe this is far from being the first time action against SS negligence has been cited as a leading cause of a child's death or injury. Baby P simply is the most recent face that's gracing the news.
SS negligence may have contributed in some degree to this child's death, but it wasn't the leading cause unless the caseworkers came out to the home and abused the child themselves.
But hey, that's my unpaid, unprofessional, personal opinion.
No argument there.
Dad
Who in his right mind would cooperate?
The problem with uncooperativeness of parents with regards to Social Services and Child Protective Services lies with the fundamentally wrong position of both prosecutor and aid provider. Child abuse is a criminal activity and as such should be investigated by police, not by case workers. The unwillingness of people to cooperate with SS and CPS only makes sense, because of the climate of "anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law". On top of that the court of law has an almost symbiotic relationship with the agencies, as a result of which the opinion of the case worker is usually followed, instead of having a judge forming an opinion. The latter is not possible either because of judge's case loads, which usually gives them only a few minutes to decide over each case, making their work largely that of rubber stamping agencies' recommendations. In that setting it is no wonder people don't cooperate with SS and CPS; it is a given, unlike any health-care situation, where at least the health-care professional can be expected to operate in the interest of its clients.
On top of that the services offered by SS and CPS are usually poor, under funded and perfomed by people that have no professional training other than a 5 week crash course. Most CPS workers are not trained social workers, but simply people with a college degree who applied for the job. Most case workers don't remain in their jobs for a long time, so effectively the agencies are totally incompetent in delivering the few services they do offer.
All that doesn't exclude personal responsibility of the people that abused Baby P, but where is help available when removal is always right around the corner? Maybe in this case removal should have been persued, but long before that help could have been offered. Due to the authority of removal Social Services have, that help doesn't come where it is needed most.
I think that idea has merit
Niels wrote:
The problem with uncooperativeness of parents with regards to Social Services and Child Protective Services lies with the fundamentally wrong position of both prosecutor and aid provider. Child abuse is a criminal activity and as such should be investigated by police, not by case workers.
I think that idea has merit and is worth further discussion, but it's not without its unintended consequences. I can think of a few.
The police cannot act unless an actionable offense has already been committed. I mean, they don't arrest people who simply look like they might rob a bank. So much for child abuse prevention. An almost impossible standard that's routinely applied to CPS on this forum - there would be no reasonable expectation of prevention. One less thing to bitch about.
I have to admit I don't know the criminal penalties for emotional or physical abuse. What is the criminal penalty for striking a child? How is neglect defined and what are the criminal penalties? Are we going to now incarcerate bad parents? Will we end up with more (or fewer) families separated by the state? Smells a bit like the war on drugs, but I'm willing to think it through.
The unwillingness of people to cooperate with SS and CPS only makes sense, because of the climate of "anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law". On top of that the court of law has an almost symbiotic relationship with the agencies, as a result of which the opinion of the case worker is usually followed, instead of having a judge forming an opinion. The latter is not possible either because of judge's case loads, which usually gives them only a few minutes to decide over each case, making their work largely that of rubber stamping agencies' recommendations. In that setting it is no wonder people don't cooperate with SS and CPS; it is a given, unlike any health-care situation, where at least the health-care professional can be expected to operate in the interest of its clients.
Substitute caseworker with police in your statement above. How is this any less adversarial? What makes abusive parents more likely to cooperate with the police when it comes to child abuse investigations? What happens when criminal penalties conflict with services a separate government entity provides?
There are sound fundamental reasons family matters are usually not handled in criminal court. The parent/child relationship is fundamentally different than that of two equal adult parties under the law to name just one. Children cannot file criminal complaints against their parents, nor parents against children, for that matter.
On top of that the services offered by SS and CPS are usually poor, under funded and perfomed by people that have no professional training other than a 5 week crash course. Most CPS workers are not trained social workers, but simply people with a college degree who applied for the job. Most case workers don't remain in their jobs for a long time, so effectively the agencies are totally incompetent in delivering the few services they do offer.
If you're arguing for better funded, trained, experienced, and educated social workers, you will get no argument from me. Of course, that will cost more money. I couldn't think of a better use of my tax dollars.
All that doesn't exclude personal responsibility of the people that abused Baby P, but where is help available when removal is always right around the corner?
Without legal authority under threat of removal, how do you propose those separate aid giving government entities deal with uncooperative abusive parents? DadSeparation of tasks
The point I tried to make was, if you separate the investigative tasks from the aid giving tasks it's easier to find cooperation with parents before the situation gets out of hand. Many families are already known to Social Service or Child Protective Services before actual abuse take place. Except for families consisting of well functioning sadists (which is probably quite rare), abuse usually originates in some sort of family crisis. Quite often that is known to Social Services or Child Protective Services, but they can't offer the right help, because of their power to remove children. When finally they do get involved it often is too late and the damage is done.So separating investigative tasks from aid giving tasks can prevent abuse by having earlier access to a family.
Whether handing over the investigative tasks to the police will resemble the war on drugs depends entirely on how that implemented. If the policies involved are driven by the ideology of getting rid of any form of child abuse once and for all, then sure it will become just another war on a metaphor. If however it is implemented like the investigations spousal abuse is, then the police simply has a mandate to step in when there is reasonable expectation of child abuse even when no complaint is filed by a victim.
We are straying here way off topic though, so if you would like to discuss this we'd better start a separate discussion.
[Taking a deep cleansing breath]
This response you are quoting was in response to a post Niels made, but then deleted. For whatever reason, this post of mine is still up, in spite of my request to have it removed, too. [A mistake I'm sure you will love to use against me and PPL for quite some time. It's ok...I've grown used to this passive-aggressive style of attack I have experienced with you.... DAD.]
So, as I take a deep cleansing breath, I will try my best to explain my words when/where I can, given the post that has been quoted and fed back to me has been taken completely out of context. [That's always fun to do!!!]
Against medical advice is not the same as against social services suggestions. Ergo the first problem in social services: why are social workers handling cases that have serious medical problems? Shouldn't there be a team of professionals working on these cases, ensuring "responsible care" is being provided for the child? The point is, neglect in any professional situation leads to danger.... just like neglect in a home can lead to a child's death/removal.
DAD, please don't insult my intelligence because by no means do I approve of negligence. If you read the related articles, you will have known the child WAS removed and then it was decided to place the child back home. Negligence -- like not reading the matierial offered you -- is not so simple and one-sided, is it? Imagine being abused and being shown "I don't care" by the adults paid to care. Nice, isn't it?
This is the very reason why many of us within this forum are angry with CPS. Removal and placement into a dangerous situation is simply not safe and it's absolutely not smart. But silly me, I'm sure there IS a much better solution... I suppose allowing a complete stranger to adopt ASAP (with or without a complete family back-ground check) is a far better choice for a child's well-being, isn't it?
Responsibility is learned how? Adult example? Instinct? What sort of Responsible Adult Examples did this mother have, given HER history with social services? What are her instincts when it comes to relationships? You see DAD, each case has it's own history. Not every story reads like your version of save the poor children, and screw the abusive mother.
[Yea, today you caught me in a mood.... that IS allowed, isn't it? You see I had terrible flashbacks this morning, and it's been a very upsetting day.... but by all means, I don't want my personal-life and adoptive family history to get in the way of a non-professional discussion]
SS put the child in a dangerous situation, and there are authorities who knew it, and questioned it, but the replacement took place anyway. [Something not at all new with SS, BTW...]. But don't take my interpretation, PLEASE read the supplied links to the story.
Your "well-meaning" words of NOT arguing with me and my opinion reminds me of the many snide comments made by my AP's and other adoptive family members. I call it dripping sarcasm, and I have learned that sort of reacting behavior can be very toxic to healthy relationships.
So, given your last words, Id like to offer my deepest felt thanks for the related memories they bring me.
Adult example? Instinct?
Kerry wrote:
Responsibility is learned how? Adult example? Instinct? What sort of Responsible Adult Examples did this mother have, given HER history with social services?DAD, please don't insult my intelligence because by no means do I approve of negligence.
Kerry, show me where I claim you approved of child negligence? I simply asked you at what point would you have removed this child, though I didn't really expect you to answer the question directly.
Given her history with social services? Correct me if I'm wrong, I think her troubles began long before social services became involved. For arguments sake, let's pretend social services didn't even exist. Given her history without social services, what sort of Responsible Adult Examples would this child have had if it actually survived through childhood?
If a medical professional fails to properly diagnose and treat an illness, it's not the same as if the medical professional was the actual cause of the illness in the first place. Helloo. Whom are you protecting?
But silly me, I'm sure there IS a much better solution... I suppose allowing a complete stranger to adopt ASAP (with or without a complete family back-ground check) is a far better choice for a child's well-being, isn't it?
< later in the same post >
I call it dripping sarcasm, and I have learned that sort of reacting behavior can be very toxic to healthy relationships.
I can see that.
Dad
Keeping a focus
"Dad", once again, I'd like to address the issues of this particular case -- care not given to a parent and child who needed it. I see that as an act of negligence, and yes, I blame those with CPS/social service, because this is the agency that gets funds from the state to facilitate change in the lives who need help and guidance.
I don't ask you to have sympathy for a woman who did nothing to keep her baby away from abusive men.
I DO ask you to consider when and where social services went wrong "helping" this mother and child.
You ask me, " at what point would you have removed this child?"
Honestly, if it were up to me, and I had the resources and outside-agents to help me with my intervention, I would have had police remove the abusive men from the house, and nurses brought over to help this mother learn how to mother and nurture her child. [And yes, such a program does exist in the United States; it's called Nurse Family Partnership, and you can read more about them here: http://www.nursefamilypartnership.org/content/index.cfm?fuseaction=showContent&contentID=40&navID=39 ] Of course, that is an oversimplification of a process that would require a lot of work and dedication, but wouldn't the effort be worth it if a mother and child could rise above the pattern of family-neglect/abuse?
I'd be a fool to believe all child abuse and neglect could be eliminated from the world.... but I think it's more cruel and foolish to believe mothers and fathers couldn't use more compassionate care when it came to raising their own children after surviving a hellish childhood, themselves.
I can appreciate your perspective, because as a foster parent, you saw how some parents just don't care about their kids. However, as one who was abused by my adoptive parents, I was always able to see how/why they treated me the way they did. All I had to do was look at their parents to see when and where things went wrong. My AP's needed help, but they refused to get it. The result? I walked away, but not without deep gaping wounds that almost killed me.
Changing a parenting-style does not happen over-night, and I think this truth gets lost when people read about a person's inability to take-care of his/her own child.
FYI...
You're right, this mother's problems began before social services became involved, and only grew worse since then.
I'll repeat the portion of the article I used in my first comment ( http://www.poundpuplegacy.org/node/22663#comment-6651 ) to illustrate this point:
Baby P represents a second-generation of social service failure.
Is there any argument with that?
Breaking the pattern
First off... The comment posted by Kerry should not have been there in the first place, because it related to a comment I made and later decided to remove. Because I thought Kerry's comment had a lot off value, independent of my comment I decided to post it, which happened to be against Kerry's will. So it is essentially my fault this entire discussion got started in the first place.
Now to the question at hand. As the BBC article from November 17, indicates Baby P's mother already came into contact with Social Services when she herself was a child growing up with a mother who had alcohol and drug problems. So in essence Social Services already failed the mother of Baby P in helping her to grow up in an environment of where she could have learned responsible adult behaviour. We don't know anything about the mother of the mother of Baby P, but it would not be all that surprising if her experiences would be quite similar. The point is someone has the break the viscious circle of neglect and Social Services can play a role in that. It's easy to make the mother of Baby P the villain in all of this and as an adult she is expected to be the responsible party, but how could she ever learn that responsibility when no one was around to teach her that by example? So the question is: could Social Services have prevented this already twenty years ago by giving proper assistance so the mother of the mother of Baby P would have been stimulated to take up her responsibility in raising her child. It's got to start somewhere and removing children is not the answer, first of all because removal is intrinsically damaging and on top of that, many foster families are not that much better than the families children are removed from.
a misunderstanding
For starters, I would like to clear up a misunderstanding. I have never been a foster parent in the usually accepted definition of the term. I mean, we had to become licensed foster parents in order to qualify for a pre-adoptive placement, but other foster children were never placed in our home.
Despite one "successful" adoptive placement in 1995, we had to be vetted all over again when our daughter was placed three years later. As was the standard practice at the time, we were required to submit financials in order to prove we could provide for our children without assistance from the state. To this day we have never received foster (or adoption) subsidies of any kind.
Neils wrote:
So the question is: could Social Services have prevented this already twenty years ago by giving proper assistance so the mother of the mother of Baby P would have been stimulated to take up her responsibility in raising her child.
Perhaps Baby P would have benefitted from social services intervening in a positive way one - two - three generations ago. Frankly, we'll never really know, nor can it be assumed social services "failed" Baby P's mother or grandmother. To use another over simplified medical analogy, patients die all the time due to their own behavioral choices despite excellent medical care. You can't force wellness on a patient.
At the same time, when it rains unexpectedly I pop open my umbrella, I don't lament the fact that it rained last week, nor do I curse the weatherman. Both will only result in me getting wet. I don't think you will argue that Baby P's circumstances and the decision to (or not to) remove him were of a more immediate nature, his grandmother's history with social services aside.
If there was ever circumstances dire enough to warrant removal, this case surely must be one of them. I read enough of the history and it reads eerily similar to my son's own. I'll spare you the all parallels, except that while the mother may not have been abusive, there was extreme neglect in both the care of Baby P and in the fact that she permitted and enabled other people to abuse him over an extended period of time.
Please know I understand the difference between temporary removal with a casegoal of reunification - and the ultimate termination of parental rights. The standards for both are not the same.
It's got to start somewhere and removing children is not the answer, first of all because removal is intrinsically damaging and on top of that, many foster families are not that much better than the families children are removed from.
No doubt we need more quality foster homes. But when child abuse or neglect is substantiated, temporary removal has to be one of the options in the worst cases. Otherwise, there will be lots more BabyPs to blame social services for.
Dad
P.S. In addition to the BabyP's mother, boyfriend, and "lodger", I do hold social services accountable in Baby Ps death. Heads should roll all over the place.
No doubt we need more
No doubt we need more quality foster homes. But when child abuse or neglect is substantiated,
You see Dad, there is the problem... if you take the time and do some research you will find many advocates Government and non government in many states and many provinces who say that many many kids are in care for no reason. Which in simple terms means countless children in the system are stolen. This probably means the child you bought was stolen as well. You can tell me that is not the case... but your not allowed to know the actual details... that is agasint the law... so you can't tell me you know for sure... cuase you don't and if you do then you have broke the law...
Funny how it's all set up like that hu? They drag our parents into secret courts and lynch them while people like you get a child outta the deal so.... I could understand your need to try to discredit people in this site and this site... so you feel better... but ... just be grateful... I was not your bought child... I'd have punched you right in the face. :)
So Mr "I bought my child cause my plumbing don't work" I suggest you should find a forum where your "I'm a super hero" dribble is is acceptable... and you can find others to stroke your ego...
And don't tell me you didn't buy your child... IT'S impossible in the states to get a child threw adoption with out paying unless it's threw family.... and even then you a still have to pay a fee...
I am getting tired of your "What inoccent me?" Routine. Your a moron... who bought what is probably a stolen child,,,, keep talking... try to make yourself feel better... would it not have been cheaper to get your plumbing fixed then to buy a child?? Or do you and ethics just not get along....lol...
Sorry just asking. As everytime you post you look dumber and dumber...
Like dude really? What are you doing here? You know everything already so your not here to learn... you insult most people you talk to in here directly and indirectly.... like you got some guilt your projecting on others...
Hey keep posting... I kinda like slappin you around... it's good practice for when I deal with government clowns.... who spit out the same verbal vomit when justifying a system that abuses us and kills us...
And dad in the future don't use abuse of children to justify child abuse in the system... it makes no sense not even in the slightest..... and is pretty low when you think about it....
And now Dad, you are aware... so please do everyone a favor and STFU and find somewhere else to troll.....
Gibbs v. Ernst (1994)
Bizzi wote:
This probably means the child you bought was stolen as well. You can tell me that is not the case... but your not allowed to know the actual details... that is agasint the law... so you can't tell me you know for sure... cuase you don't and if you do then you have broke the law...
That's simply false. We were provided copies of both our children's casefiles. As a result of several wrongful adoption lawsuits, Pennsylvania was one of the first states to pass full disclosure legislation (see below). 44 other states have similar statutes.
Our son had a rather extensive file, beginning when social services first intervened when he was 10 months old. Five foster placements, an outline of the reunification plan, one failed reunification, medical histories, etc - his file was three inches thick.
The daughter you claim we stole didn't have a history with social services until she was abandoned by her mentally ill father 9 months after her mother died. She was never removed by social services - she was delivered to their doorstep. We did additional research shortly after her adoptive placement, and the information we received from her deceased mother's employer, colleagues, and friends further validated the information in her social services casefile.
Our son is now 19 and has complete access to his casefile, although he has shown minimal interest. Our 16 year old daughter will have to wait another couple of years.
As for the purchase price you claim we paid for our stolen children, we retained an attorney for the adoption finalizations at a cost of $450. Our kids came from foster care within our state, so travel was minimal. Homestudy cost, agency fees, class tuition, misc expenses - there were none. Don't worry, your tax dollars picked up the balance. Feel better? I didn't think so.
You know, Bizzi, I think you should be more careful before you tell someone what their personal experience has been. I don't remember you being there when we adopted our children. Your post is full of personal attacks and your allegations are so completely false they're almost laughable.
If your intention is to slander me in order to drive me off this forum, you might just achieve your objective.
Congratulations... now you're the hero.
Dad
In Gibbs v. Ernst (1994), the Pennsylvania court held "an adoption agency has a duty to disclose fully and accurately to the adopting parents all relevant nonidentifying information in its possession concerning the adoptee." In this case, the family was told that the five-year-old boy they were interested in adopting had lived with one family for two years after removal from his birthfamily for neglect. He was said to be hyperactive but with no other problems. The family had stated that they did not want to adopt a child who had any history of physical or sexual abuse. Later, the child became severely mentally ill and was hospitalized and diagnosed with schizophrenia. It was determined that the child had been both physically and sexually abused in the past and he had had many foster placements before the family adopted him. The agency was aware of these facts but did not disclose them.
Big differences
One of the most annoying/frustrating things I find about adoption laws is how they vary from state to state, and from country to country. [The complexities can easily drive a person mad with confusion!] I really don't think the average reader can appreciate just how complicated adoption can be. Celebrities and people with political pull sure make it all look easy, don't they?
I have been told many times by AP's that they made it very clear that they were not willing to take a child who was sexually abused, but were presented with sexually abused children, anyway. [What is a person to do then? It's horrible, isn't it?] I don't harbor ill-feelings towards the PAP's who KNOW their own limits, and know they don't want to deal with a child who comes with sexual abuse issues. [Call me old-fashioned but I think a person should have a general sense of what's acceptable/unacceptable before starting a family.] My problem, as it often is, is with the workers and agents who think absent information is the same as "n/a" (not applicable).
The fact that many children are being sexually abused in orphanages and foster care makes the issue of accurate documentation more of a concern because it makes me wonder, what are the chances all pieces of vital information are going to make it to a child's files if proper follow-up and written reports are not being done/ submitted within a pre-established time-frame? [The nurse-in-me wants to ask, "who's been filling-out/reviewing the patient's charts, and how often is that required task to be done?"]
44 states have this disclosure requirement.
Which states and countries don't require "full disclosure" of a child's life-experience before adoption?
Ah yeas.. the old abandoned
Ah yeas.. the old abandoned story...
Yeah according to CPS that stole me... my mom Droped me off at their doorstep to.. it even said it in my file.... so it must have been true right?
Wrong..... I remember it all... I remember my mom's tears .... I remember mine...
You know they even tried to convince me a few years later of that like I didn't remember.. they tried to get me to hate my parents... Now they are facing a lawsuit...
Say what you like but... CPS is run by a bunch of low life criminals... just cause it says it in a file does not mean SQAT!!!
With CPS they find away around anything... a file is a file made up by who? Oh yes CPS so it all must be true ...like the word of god himself right? Pathetic....
According to my file... my abadonment issues were the cause of my lashing out.... when the reality it was from the abuse in care...
My file said I was cronologicly depressed and would never bond with another human being...
The reality... I was kidnapped stolen and abused.... lied to.... And everyone was my enemy... and I trusted noone and attacked everyone...
My file said lots of things... but the reality is... my file was used to justify me being in care and used to explain to people how I got so screwed up...
A file is full of CPS words and lies... made up by corporation who sell OTHER FUCKIN PEOPLES CHILDREN!
You can't justify it... you can't hide from the reality of what these heartless savages are doing.... you can't hide the truth... you can pretend it does not apply to you... but your only lying to yourself... and your purchesed "daughter" you got threw these criminal shit bags...
According to CPS in my area I abandoned my son... when the reality was I didn't even knew I had one... then when I found out....spent years just fighting to be in his life... but in CPS's own words "We had him first"
According to CPS I am a drug addict... and am not capable of rasing my child and I am retarded...
According to my sons file being biten in the face by a dog and having red laserations accross his hands ...was an "misunderstanding"....
CPS is full of shit... and if you beleive a damb word out of their mouths your ether just really retarded... or you wanted a child so bad you just didn't care.....
Do you know why there is full disclosure...?
Not because children are suspected of being stolen..... but becuase kids get so messed up once they get in the system A-parents were tired of getting dysfunctional... kids.... as it was not the ideal situation they thought they were getting into...
So they got together and bitched... so they could avoid getting kids who were broken....
So put that fake ass halo away... and have a seat and learn something.... or keep spitting out the "I'm a hero" dribble... I don't care it's you.... but keep the BS to yourself... you can look in the mirror and call yourself a hero over and over and maybe just maybe if your real lucky... someone might beleive you...
And dad are you asking me to leave you alone? Are you actaully bitching that I am attacking you...
Oh so it's okay if you raz people here or politly insult them... or patronize them... but lord forbid I do it to you...
and your right it is funny.... cause it's mostly all true...
No I was not there when you bought your child... if I had been you'd have got it right in the face..... nuthing is lower then buying another human being... and just simply disgusts me to no end... only a sick individual would think buying a child is okay and calling them your child... like you'd have to be a Sociopath of some sort or another...
Stop talkin Dad, your just making it worse for yourself.
It's the year 2008...the savage practice of adoption and foster care should be a thing of the past while we let wisdom humanity and ethics build something for the present that does not involve ass raping familes and selling children.... and then ditching the ones not bought in the streets so they can be doomed to wonder around homeless for the rest of their lives after the system screws their brains up 3 ways from sunday....
Of course you and other A-patents are defending this... you got a child or are getting a child out of the deal... you even get to pick and choose now to..eh?
Fuck the rest of us right?
Trying to find reason
I know when I first started posting on adoption websites, I had simply assumed all adoptees had gone through what I went through. In some ways we all did: we lost first-families, and we all got hurt, one way or another. I could relate well to that pain, and my writing reflected how agreeable I was with those who saw and understood my expressed angst.
I learned slowly, some got more hurt than others, and that pain could easily be seen in the words and actions made by those feeling the worst. [I might add here, these are the very posts that got deleted on adoption forums, making fostered/adopted adults and birth parents VERY upset and angry. What good is the notion of freedom of speech if we're not free to express our opinions based on personal experience?]
I look back and I see how my temper got me deleted many times.
My temper was multi-folded, and it was fueled from decades of silence.
I hated people who purchased children for their own personal egos and I hated adoptees who defended AP's. I saw them as brainwashed idiots who walked in a daze of stupidity created by the adoption industry. I learned later, many of the "supportive adoptees" were the kids who got second-chances in really good homes.
That was a tough bitter pill to swallow, but it made me see adoption and child placement differently. Even in adoption practice, there are the Haves and the Have Nots, and that puts many kids in the same situations they were before placement, only worse.
It's easy to hate the AP's when they are the ones taking children who belong to other families. [But we can't assume all first-families are good or worth keeping, can we?]
It's easy to hate the foster parents who take kids in for the money or for the advantage of getting listed higher on an adoption list.
It's hard to accept every foster/adoptive parent is a monster, and every angry foster kids/adoptee is an animal ready to attack because I simply do not believe that's true. I believe there are many monsters playing the role of caring individual, and I believe this is where we need to be careful.
Just because a person's personal experience is "different", that doesn't mean that person is bad... it simply means we all have to be careful not to pull triggers that can lead to an ugly mess.
I don't believe in censoring anger. I believe strongly it needs to be expressed, and others need to appreciate where this anger comes from.
I also don't believe in attacking others because of what they represent.
Can we try to keep cheap shots to a minimum, knowing that the anger we feel is towards wrong-doings made by many many people outside of our PPL circle?
Regarding this thread, I'd appreciate all comments relate to the posted article, and how authorities could have done a better job protecting the kids they are paid to protect.
Any other personal issues, please feel free to address in an separate Open Discussion, or post it in Adult Aftermath. Either way, I think it's best to keep personal attacks to a minimum.
Oh I agree fully..... I was
Oh I agree fully..... I was just getting tired of dad... kindly insulting people... (Some never even noticed) Dad attacks ...but in a caring way... kinda... and the whole attitude of the man all high and mighty...
I see he posts some good stuff too... I just figured I would let him know how he is making others feel, by making him feel it himself.
People seem to learn from experience rather then explanation. If I offended people, my apologies. I don't care who adopts and who doesn't.
I just wish to god people understood ...with the system the way it is... they got a 60/40 chance of getting a stolen child like myself... I just hope they have the humanity and care enouph about the child to check for themselves.....and yes the system will make it hard..almost next to impossible... but if you love your adopted child you will do that for them.... if you do not then you only care about you and you have no business taking one of us into your homes...
I am blissfully unaware
Kerry wrote:
Kerry, I am blissfully unaware of the circumstance or history behind your post(s) on this topic. I simply saw your post and responded. As for using it "against you and PPL for quite some time", frankly I have no idea what you're talking about. I really don't busy myself with the back door politics on this forum.This response you are quoting was in response to a post Niels made, but then deleted. For whatever reason, this post of mine is still up, in spite of my request to have it removed, too. [A mistake I'm sure you will love to use against me and PPL for quite some time. It's ok...I've grown used to this passive-aggressive style of attack I have experienced with you.... DAD.]
< skipping to the end >
So, given your last words, Id like to offer my deepest felt thanks for the related memories they bring me.
If I have opened old wounds and memories, I am sorry. Please know that was not my intention.
Jay
Intentions
Over the years I have seen how "intentions" can lead. I believe only the true evil sociopath wants to hurt another person and watch them bleed, but that's not to say accidents in misjudgement don't happen.
The question is, how far do we push when we don't know the facts?
You see, "Dad", I lost my ability to feel the dark seething rage and anger I used to feel a few years ago. I lost that "ability" when I smashed my head against a hardwood floor and lost the ability to speak for weeks. What caused such a reaction? I found documents, and caught lies and could not believe more "intentions" were haunting me in ways I could not escape. I was stopped in my tracks, I needed to lash-out, and I put the pain on all me, just like I learned how to do. Our of fear of hurting my children, I willed myself to regain strength and ability, and find myself stronger than ever, with a real weakness for tenderness. [I never knew how much I needed compassion until I couldn't speak... crazy, ain't it?]
The sicko in me likes to dig, like a dog, for the bone of truth most of us are missing. It just so happens I get hurt when I do this alone. I can stand the pain, it's the memories that hurt, and no amount of pills can take that away.
Adoption is one of those things that triggers A LOT of people, for many many reasons.
We all have wounds and defenses... just some are stronger and more wild than others.
For the sake of discussion, I try to keep a balance between what I remember, what I feel and what I know. Sometimes it works effectively, other times it creates a storm, but as long as it creates conversation and contemplation going, I believe it's all good.
I believe people come to read our pages because we dig for examples and published documents, studies and stories as written proof that there exists a universal need for radical change in child placement services. This need must be taken seriously, so the "behind the scenes activity" (or "back-door politics") you are blissfully unaware of is about making these changes a reality by networking already established groups and services that can aid future organizations that will serve as watchdogs within the child placement industry. [At least, that is my dream....]
We are not bad misguided people with poor intentions.
We have a vision that few see and understand yet... and that's ok. We have only just begun.
In my book, ignorance is not a crime, but claiming false innocence could be.
When a person offers me a humble apology, I am grateful. In fact, I have learned sincere humble humility brings me to my knees. [Yes, it makes me weep and sob deeply.]
I often wonder how many people underestimate the healing power of a truly sincere apology -- one that says without words: "I promise, with all my power, I will not let that offense happen again".